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Did the Gsync and FreeSync thing cause a war? - Page 2

post #11 of 22
G-Sync & FreeSync are not magic solutions for image persistence. You still need backlight strobing as the two modes(VRR & strobing) aren't compatible.
Also, consider OLED monitors that will arrive in 2018, or select one with a premium strobing feature, such as BenQ XL2730Z.
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post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Interesting. Got any reference material we can look at? I'd love to see how they plan on doing this without the hardware module and not have the card take a latency hit? Will this feature, when enabled, effectively cut the video memory in half? Will it only double, or will it do triple or more (like the G-Sync solution)? Will they do a driver roll out like they did with FreeSync initially, and it not work on CrossFire at first? Will it be limited to only a certain GCN level and certain cards?

As an owner of 2 G-Sync and 1 FreeSync monitor, I would love to hear details on this.

It has to be done on the GPU side so I'd assume they just keep the last frame buffered and resend it if a new frame isn't ready by the time the monitor needs to refresh again. It will take some extra memory capacity, but VRAM usage isn't all from buffering frames, which is why people shouldn't use the term "frame buffer" when referring to how much VRAM a card has; most of it is actually used for textures and other game data. A single frame, even at resolutions like 4K or 8K, only takes a few dozen Megabytes.
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post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Interesting. Got any reference material we can look at? I'd love to see how they plan on doing this without the hardware module and not have the card take a latency hit? Will this feature, when enabled, effectively cut the video memory in half? Will it only double, or will it do triple or more (like the G-Sync solution)? Will they do a driver roll out like they did with FreeSync initially, and it not work on CrossFire at first? Will it be limited to only a certain GCN level and certain cards?

As an owner of 2 G-Sync and 1 FreeSync monitor, I would love to hear details on this.

I can't go into too much details. But, I know it will not cut the video memory in half and it will at least double the minimum refresh rate for that specific FreeSync monitor.

You don't need a hardware module to do this because the ASIC in the FreeSync capable cards should be able to handle it.

It is going to be enabled through a regular driver update/release. As a monitor manufacturer/vendor - nothing has to be done on our end if our monitor is FreeSync certified.
 
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post #14 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Nixeus View Post

I can't go into too much details. But, I know it will not cut the video memory in half and it will at least double the minimum refresh rate for that specific FreeSync monitor.

You don't need a hardware module to do this because the ASIC in the FreeSync capable cards should be able to handle it.

It is going to be enabled through a regular driver update/release. As a monitor manufacturer/vendor - nothing has to be done on our end if our monitor is FreeSync certified.

I know you are just in the middle and this is NOT directed at you, but seriously, I really am getting tired of the whole "can't disclose x or y" stuff from AMD. First it was the specs on what the actual certification numbers are, now this. For a supposedly "open standard", FreeSync sure is shrouded in mystery. And yes, I know that technically FreeSync and Adaptive Sync are technically different, but you have to admit, the AMD propaganda machine didn't push things like that when they marketed it. The reality is, FreeSync is as closed and proprietary as G-Sync.
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I know you are just in the middle and this is NOT directed at you, but seriously, I really am getting tired of the whole "can't disclose x or y" stuff from AMD. First it was the specs on what the actual certification numbers are, now this. For a supposedly "open standard", FreeSync sure is shrouded in mystery. And yes, I know that technically FreeSync and Adaptive Sync are technically different, but you have to admit, the AMD propaganda machine didn't push things like that when they marketed it. The reality is, FreeSync is as closed and proprietary as G-Sync.

I apologize if you interpreted my statements and explanations incorrectly.

For clarification:

The certification process are not specs and not numbers - but a series of tests to make sure it works well with AMD's "FreeSync" environment. This "Certification or validation testing" is AMD's own method and not for public disclosure. Adaptive-Sync is an open standard, and FreeSync is AMD's execution and application of that open standard. We make Adaptive-Sync monitors, I test it with AMD's FreeSync Certification tests - to make sure it passes, then the monitors are sent to AMD for verification and Certification testing, too. If it does not pass, then I either fix what needs to be fixed to pass or weigh the risks (if there are any issues or not) to ship the monitor as an Adaptive-Sync only monitor.

There are going to be a lot of Adaptive-Sync monitors coming out - some may be AMD FreeSync certified and some may not. Some Adaptive-Sync monitors may work perfectly fine in AMD's FreeSync environment and some may not (or some end users may never experience the issues if there are any).

Every monitor manufacturer has their own validation tests to make sure their monitors work well with all available hardware/vendor drivers before shipping them. I'm not going to disclose to the public what my own tests are - but I can assure you, before our monitors ship, I find problems that occur in Nvidia, AMD, Intel, and Apple hardware. If the problems can be fixed on our monitor end, then we do it. But some time these issues are from the hardware (Nvidia, AMD, Intel, and Apple) and it is up to them to implement a solution to the issues if there are none yet.


I'm not sure why you want to know what these tests are - no manufacturer or even hardware/software company is going to give you their validation tests or make it public.
Edited by Peter Nixeus - 10/5/15 at 2:09pm
 
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post #16 of 22
No, you explained it correctly, and again, I'm not mad at you or anything.

I am aware that the FreeSync specs and testing methodology are AMD's, and that they don't allow them to be disclosed, that is what the crux of my mini-rant was about.

Now that Intel is considering adopting AdaptiveSync, I can see another nightmare heading down the pike. Will the monitor be ASync compatible? Will it also be FreeSync certified? Will it also be IntelSync certified? ... what combination of the mix? Then you get into the whole mess of what is the VRR both upper and lower.

Then do I even dare ask if this new low end frame doubling (tripling, or more?) only work with FreeSync certified monitors, or will it work on ALL monitors that are AdaptiveSync compatible.

I'm not really interested in the monitors testing procedures, but rather what AMD requires of the monitor companies to be validated to. I really don't care the details of how Asus, Benq, Nixeus, etc do the actual tests, just what they are testing for. I just like knowing things. My favorite show is "How it's made".

Just too much work to keep it all straight ... and I'm more tech savvy than your average idiot (I'm an exceptional idiot). biggrin.gif
Edited by 47 Knucklehead - 10/5/15 at 2:25pm
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

No, you explained it correctly, and again, I'm not mad at you or anything.

I am aware that the FreeSync specs and testing methodology are AMD's, and that they don't allow them to be disclosed, that is what the crux of my mini-rant was about.

Now that Intel is considering adopting AdaptiveSync, I can see another nightmare heading down the pike. Will the monitor be ASync compatible? Will it also be FreeSync certified? Will it also be IntelSync certified? ... what combination of the mix? Then you get into the whole mess of what is the VRR both upper and lower.

Then do I even dare ask if this new low end frame doubling (tripling, or more?) only work with FreeSync certified monitors, or will it work on ALL monitors that are AdaptiveSync compatible.

I'm not really interested in the monitors testing procedures, but rather what AMD requires of the monitor companies to be validated to. I really don't care the details of how Asus, Benq, Nixeus, etc do the actual tests, just what they are testing for. I just like knowing things. My favorite show is "How it's made".

Just too much work to keep it all straight ... and I'm more tech savvy than your average idiot (I'm an exceptional idiot). biggrin.gif

LOL... no worries - I am a lot like you.

The Adaptive-Sync and FreeSync specification is widely published. The AMD FreeSync Certification testing methods are just AMD's version of monitor validation (like we have our own version of monitor testing/validation) they test it to make sure it works well with their FreeSync environment and Radeon Cards. I have to test our monitors to make sure it works well with Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Apple, SoC, and other hardware, etc....

I think by the time Intel enters the picture and support Adaptive-Sync they should have some experience since it is similar to display power saving features in laptops and AIO computers. Also Intel is part of VESA so they are not going into this blindly.

Nvidia is already using Adaptive-Sync (with no G-sync module) in their new G-Sync gaming laptops - but have their own driver/software to run it with their feature sets.

AMD has its own drivers/software to run Adaptive-Sync in laptops and monitors with their feature sets.

I'm pretty sure Intel may also have their own drivers/software to run Adaptive-Sync with their feature sets.

Each scalar partner have "reference" Adaptive-Sync firmwares - but ultimately it is up to the monitor vendors how they want to implement it or modify it for additional features or their preferences.

The nightmares you are talking about had nothing to do with AMD FreeSync - because I did not experience them during our development.
Edited by Peter Nixeus - 10/5/15 at 3:52pm
 
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post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahkeesh View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Check the tftcentral review of that monitor, they mentioned some minor issues running the monitor with "nvidia cards", those may apply equally when not using freesync on amd.

A note that Intel has said they will start supporting freesync in their future iGPUs, which IMO means NVidia is going to lose the war and will have to support it eventually, but if so this is many years away. Still there are like 3x the number of freesync displays over gsync atm.
It would be nice if AMD could implement some kind of frame doubling solution like gsync uses for low framerates, even if it costs gpu/cpu resources to do so.

I experienced this on my Gsync monitor one time. I was playing witcher 3 1440p/max/hairworks on my single 980 ti. I was on the part of the game where you defend kaer morhen from the wild hunt. Things were really shooting off. AI everywhere. Lots of special effects. I suddenly noticed that my guy seemed like he was moving in steps or something. It was pretty odd. Sadly I was not monitoring my fps at the time to say how low I went. I can say that though I was able to play through it, it was far from what I'd consider ideal. Really wish I had been monitoring fps for that one.
     
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post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chargeit View Post

I experienced this on my Gsync monitor one time. I was playing witcher 3 1440p/max/hairworks on my single 980 ti. I was on the part of the game where you defend kaer morhen from the wild hunt. Things were really shooting off. AI everywhere. Lots of special effects. I suddenly noticed that my guy seemed like he was moving in steps or something. It was pretty odd. Sadly I was not monitoring my fps at the time to say how low I went. I can say that though I was able to play through it, it was far from what I'd consider ideal. Really wish I had been monitoring fps for that one.

I did the same thing on my 980 in a poorly optimized DX9 game at 1440p with settings on "ultra". During a boss fight, FPS dropped below 30 and the game was totally playable. Compared to my FreeSync monitor playing the same game (different hardware obviously), I will only play on a system that has that feature now. People say that playing a game at anything other than 30+ (and some say 40+) FPS is insane obviously haven't played on G-Sync. It allows you to still play the game at very low FPS and still have everything cranked up. This is key for 1440p, 1600p, and really 4K.

The reality is, once you go VRR, you can never go back, and having used both G-Sync and FreeSync (as it stands now), there is no way I could go back to FreeSync without a fully working and latency free out of VRR on the low end.
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I did the same thing on my 980 in a poorly optimized DX9 game at 1440p with settings on "ultra". During a boss fight, FPS dropped below 30 and the game was totally playable. Compared to my FreeSync monitor playing the same game (different hardware obviously), I will only play on a system that has that feature now. People say that playing a game at anything other than 30+ (and some say 40+) FPS is insane obviously haven't played on G-Sync. It allows you to still play the game at very low FPS and still have everything cranked up. This is key for 1440p, 1600p, and really 4K.

The reality is, once you go VRR, you can never go back, and having used both G-Sync and FreeSync (as it stands now), there is no way I could go back to FreeSync without a fully working and latency free out of VRR on the low end.

Wow - you got some skills! Pretty good recording and playing at the same time. I agree - even with high end graphics cards and powerful rig, frames some time can drop in some gaming scenarios - which is where FreeSync and G-Sync really makes the gaming smooth in the 30fps to 60fps range where tearing and studdering mostly occurs.

What you don't see in that video however, is the G-Sync module inserting frames and doubling the refresh rate to make everything match/sync up making it appear smooth at 35fps and lower. That FPS counter is only showing what the GPU is doing in regards to frame rate and not what the G-Sync module/monitor is doing. The moment your game was hitting 28fps, your G-Sync monitor is actually showing 56fps with 56Hz refresh rate. I think the cut off point for that to happen is around ~30Hz/37Hz before the frame insertion/Hz doubling comes into play. PCPer showed it at around ~35Hz/37Hz for one of their G-Sync monitors.

So for right now FreeSync does not have that feature - but our monitor does go all the way down to 30Hz. Also our monitor's OSD shows the Hz at the moment you press the "menu button" (not real time but at the instant you bring up the OSD) so once I receive the beta drivers I will actually be able to see if the fps/Hz doubling is working.
 
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