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[PCPer] StarCraft II v3.0 Gets Another New UI - Page 4

post #31 of 40
Holy sheit
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post #32 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

When you have 50/50 winrates the problems are with design, not balance. Most of the zerg issues have been stuff like supporting entire matchups where they are weak on the backs of a few overly strong units (infestor, swarm host) yet still didn't go over 50/50 winrate for some of the time that it was a problem.

I disagree completely, winrates are indicative of how well a playerbase is adapting. To understand this better you'd have to know some statistical math. Otherwise you wouldn't undertsand what the variables are indicative of.

Too tired to have an in depth conversation about statistical math right now, normally I'd be at least open to it but....blarg. Gonna finish watching Gotham then pass out.

Unfortunately if you're looking at statistics rather than the game itself then you're not going to have a good time figuring out if something was balanced or not. As it's been said before, it varies greatly with player form, the metagame (a Protoss player could figure out a strong timing against Zerg, which would make PvZ P-favored until top Zerg players figured out a good counter to that build; such counters nearly always exist in SC2), the maps, etc.

The game is balanced.

Design issues however are "broken" aspects of the game, where a certain race which manages to get to a certain point in the game (say x amount of bases with y amount of swarm hosts) would lead to an almost certain win. Sometimes that win condition is too easy to obtain (BL / infestor) sometimes there are enough strong plays out of other races which prevents you from getting to your "broken" win condition.

The best zerg player in the world for the longest time (Life) often made one swarm-host during high-profile tournament games, only to kill it off upon having realized he made that unit by mistake. Other zergs (in particular in Europe) were known for doing everything in their power to get to the "swarm host win condition". This style wasn't really viable in the high-octane, cutting-edge Korean environment (or perhaps high-octane Koreans never really tried to do it), however it met some success in Europe, where people tend to play in a way so as to not lose, rather than in a way to force a win. Not quite the same thing;
post #33 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by incog View Post

Unfortunately if you're looking at statistics rather than the game itself then you're not going to have a good time figuring out if something was balanced or not. As it's been said before, it varies greatly with player form, the metagame (a Protoss player could figure out a strong timing against Zerg, which would make PvZ P-favored until top Zerg players figured out a good counter to that build; such counters nearly always exist in SC2), the maps, etc.

The game is balanced.

Design issues however are "broken" aspects of the game, where a certain race which manages to get to a certain point in the game (say x amount of bases with y amount of swarm hosts) would lead to an almost certain win. Sometimes that win condition is too easy to obtain (BL / infestor) sometimes there are enough strong plays out of other races which prevents you from getting to your "broken" win condition.

The best zerg player in the world for the longest time (Life) often made one swarm-host during high-profile tournament games, only to kill it off upon having realized he made that unit by mistake. Other zergs (in particular in Europe) were known for doing everything in their power to get to the "swarm host win condition". This style wasn't really viable in the high-octane, cutting-edge Korean environment (or perhaps high-octane Koreans never really tried to do it), however it met some success in Europe, where people tend to play in a way so as to not lose, rather than in a way to force a win. Not quite the same thing;

Annnnd with that you prove you have no concept of statistical math.

Statistical math is comprised of hundreds of variables. In context this means Blizzard has your build orders. If you were to analyze the build orders and find a commonanlity, for example: that most TvZ games aren't any shorter than the average game length for the past few years then they'd look into the build orders and see why: in this case it would be becasue mech absolutely requires Vipers to beat if you're playing someone of the same skill level.

That in turn points to an issue as there's only two ways zerg beats mech: massing vipers or don't let them get mech. From there they can break down the statistics more to see what the cause of this issue is and if it needs addressing.

That's a very, very basic look at how statistical math is relavent to sc2 and why it points to balance issues.

Design issues are when a units role is fundamentally flawed. The only way that shows in statistical math is when no one uses the unit or everyone uses the unit. Those are the only two tell tale variables to figuring out if a unit is doing it's job without actually watching a replay to see how the unit is performing.
Edited by DIYDeath - 10/6/15 at 2:07pm
post #34 of 40
"That in turn points to an issue as there's only two ways zerg beats mech: massing vipers or don't let them get mech."

This is probably over-simplified to the point where statistical math doesn't mean much anymore. I don't pretend to be a pro at Starcraft but if you start making statement such as these as if they were facts, then you're seriously underestimating how much these things are set in stone and ignoring just how deep and complex Starcraft is as a game.

I'll leave it at that. Statistical math is certainly a helpful tool in the quest to figure out balance, however basing balance statements solely on stuff like that is just never going to work out.
post #35 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by incog View Post

"That in turn points to an issue as there's only two ways zerg beats mech: massing vipers or don't let them get mech."

This is probably over-simplified to the point where statistical math doesn't mean much anymore. I don't pretend to be a pro at Starcraft but if you start making statement such as these as if they were facts, then you're seriously underestimating how much these things are set in stone and ignoring just how deep and complex Starcraft is as a game.

I'll leave it at that. Statistical math is certainly a helpful tool in the quest to figure out balance, however basing balance statements solely on stuff like that is just never going to work out.

Examples aren't end all be alls. They're just examples. Try to keep that in mind when you respond to someone, trying to refute them. tongue.gif

You don't need to be a "pro" to get how this stuff work, you just need to be objective and have some sembalance of skill so you can comprehend what variables would be in play.
post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEW21689 View Post

Realizing they had it right back in SC1/BW... If only they realized that in other aspects of the game...

 

Just give us a 3D (not 3D vision) + HD Remake of SC:BW with the updated trigger engine, unit customization and better campaign editor. Just don't kill things like Hyper Triggers...


Have you played Mass Recall?

 

No I haven't, should I?

Mass Recall is a remake of the Vanilla and Brood War campaigns in the SC2 engine. It's quite good, actually.
post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Mass Recall is a remake of the Vanilla and Brood War campaigns in the SC2 engine. It's quite good, actually.
Curious but does it actually goes full SC1 as in retarded dragoon AI, units don't clump, 12units/group and setting miners on minerals/gas?
If not you might as well play a whole other game tbh.

Also, for the people who are wondering why i go on and on about the dragoon AI. Just look at this nonsense

Edited by Assirra - 10/7/15 at 10:00am
post #38 of 40
I'm not a fan of the UI change. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out how to exit the game last night since the menu button is gone.
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post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assirra View Post

Curious but does it actually goes full SC1 as in retarded dragoon AI, units don't clump, 12units/group and setting miners on minerals/gas?
If not you might as well play a whole other game tbh.

No, they're not as dumb. It's a remake of the campaign in the SC2 engine, not an attempt to reproduce the SC1 engine. Believe me, I am quite familiar with the original, and I'd say this is a faithful replica of the spirit of the campaign, if not every aged detail of odd programming.

Adding in stupid dragoon AI I'm not sure is something that could be done deliberately.
post #40 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by axipher View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEW21689 View Post

Realizing they had it right back in SC1/BW... If only they realized that in other aspects of the game...

 

Just give us a 3D (not 3D vision) + HD Remake of SC:BW with the updated trigger engine, unit customization and better campaign editor. Just don't kill things like Hyper Triggers...



Have you played Mass Recall?

 

No I haven't, should I?


Mass Recall is a remake of the Vanilla and Brood War campaigns in the SC2 engine. It's quite good, actually.

 

Hmm, might have to check that out then. Thanks for the tip.
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