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post #21 of 46
hang on.. are you pumping INTO the tube res?
post #22 of 46
Thread Starter 
Yes. See the images I uploaded. There's an inner tube within the tube res. My loop is counter clock wise.


Ok so I ran another 30 minutes test as before with the case door open and the results are:

Ambient = 26.1
Water = 38.4
Delta = 12.3

Not a significant change.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I'm very upset about this.
All this time, effort and money went into planning my first best custom water cooling. I thought about everything there was to think about, but still I'm no where near where I expected to be.

At least the GPU temps and CPU are very well controlled. When these GPU's were air cooled, the temp reached 90~95c and Vrams over 70. Now they don't get close to 70 and Vrams are in their 60.
It's hard to tame these GPU's and OC CPU in Sydney summer.
But I expected that these massive rads and fans and p/p config will greatly help in keeping low delta.

Where did I go wrong?
Edited by Gil80 - 10/9/15 at 2:22am
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post #23 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post

Yes. See the images I uploaded. There's an inner tube within the tube res. My loop is counter clock wise.


Ok so I ran another 30 minutes test as before with the case door open and the results are:

Ambient = 26.1
Water = 38.4
Delta = 12.3

Not a significant change.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I'm very upset about this.
All this time, effort and money went into planning my first best custom water cooling. I thought about everything there was to think about, but still I'm no where near where I expected to be.

At least the GPU temps and CPU are very well controlled. When these GPU's were air cooled, the temp reached 90~95c and Vrams over 70. Now they don't get close to 70 and Vrams are in their 60.
It's hard to tame these GPU's and OC CPU in Sydney summer.
But I expected that these massive rads and fans and p/p config will greatly help in keeping low delta.

Where did I go wrong?

We'll find out smile.gif

To answer earlier.. its best to have all rads have air INTAKE, its the "coolest" air they can get.. it gives the best results.
Providing they can get enough air to breathe... having 1" at the bottom and 1" at the top is not exactly a lot of breathing room.
Plus there is the risk it gets re-circulated under the desk.

But we can make it work smile.gif

Every rad intake, and the rear fan as exhaust at full speed to get rid of the warm air inside the case. To be honest, it would be best to cut out the grill, to give it more room to exhaust (and makes less noise also).
Doyll has a lot of "guides" on that subject, so i dont have to go in detail smile.gif

Also, to have even more exhaust.. you could have a fan at the bottom/rear to help exhaust warm air. You'ld need either a thin fan or mount the fan on the outside. Again removing/cutting out the grille.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post




So, the tube res has no function at all? Except slowing down the velocity?

Maybe i dont understand how that res works.. but as i understand it you run a hose from the pump THROUGH tube res into the CPU.
If it runs through, then there can be no liquid in the tube res itself.
If it runs INTO, then it relies on the tube res being pressurised to "push" the water from the tube res into the CPU.

Seems a bit unorthodox to me....

It would be a lot easier by using a more conventional setup: PUMP -> BOTTOM RAD -> GPU1+GPU2 -> TOP RAD -> CPU -> XSPC Res OR Tube Res -> (3th Rad) -> XSPC Res OR Tube Res -> PUMP

But maybe i dont understand how that tube res is supposed to work.. i do know that EK is rather specific on which ports you can use
https://shop.ekwb.com/ek-res-x3-250

This schematic is missing the 3rd rad.. you did have a 3rd, didn't you?
Better update the schematic smile.gif

Also, i'm gonna take a wild guess, if you added the third rad later.. maybe we should check that out. Maybe you unwillingly set it up so its fighting or bypassing the natural flow?


EDIT:

BTW: a while back we had a case where the performance also below par, despite having multiple rad with push/pull fans.
Turned out the guy had mounted the fans in push/push on one (or two) of the rads. An oversight, a leap of judgement.. (i dont want to use the words "a stupid mistake") .... it happens.. smile.gif
Not saying you did the same thing, but we need to cover everything, dont we?. From the pix, the bottom rad is in push/pull intake. The top rad, i can't make out very well.. it seems to be set up as intake, judging from the bottom fans. I assume the top/case fans are also set to intake? Just double checking. smile.gif

.
Edited by RnRollie - 10/9/15 at 3:26am
post #24 of 46
Thread Starter 
It will take me a while to flip back the top fans for intake, but then I'll really have to find a better solution for exhausting heat under the desk.
I need a 140mm / 2Meters air duct and find how to stick it to the back of the case and then route it away from the PC.

As for the tube res, yes it's unorthodox. I didn't want to have it like everyone else. I had to experiment and complicate it a bit.

So the pump gets water from Top Res.

Pump > tube res > CPU > 420 Rad > GPUs > 280 Rad > 240 Rad > Top Res > Pump

* The tube Res gets filled from the bottom port.
* Top port has an inner tube that reaches just a bit half way through the tube res
* Top port sucks cold water to the CPU

It looks like this: https://shop.ekwb.com/ek-res-x3-internal-tube-12-16-140mm

Look carefully at the photos from my previous posts. You can actually spot the inner tube there.
TBH - the reason I decided to do this, in addition to my previous stated reason above, is that I wanted to make sure that the GPU's are getting the coldest possible water, that is why the loop is like this.
I don't think that re-tubing any differently will make a huge impact on tubes. But I could be wrong.
I think it's the Phanteks fans and how the PC is located.
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post #25 of 46
It's hard to tame these GPU's and OC CPU in Sydney summer.

yea, I live in Arizona, and the average temp outside for 9 months out of the year is above 100F, so I feel your pain.
post #26 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post

It will take me a while to flip back the top fans for intake, but then I'll really have to find a better solution for exhausting heat under the desk.
I need a 140mm / 2Meters air duct and find how to stick it to the back of the case and then route it away from the PC.

dryer hose/vent smile.gif



or you could make a "box" which attaches to the desk with an opening at the right height and slide the back of the PC against the opening..bolt in an extra fan in the "box" and then route the hose to where it needs to go.. probably easier then trying to find something that "fits" the PC smile.gif



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post

As for the tube res, yes it's unorthodox. I didn't want to have it like everyone else. I had to experiment and complicate it a bit.

So the pump gets water from Top Res.

Pump > tube res > CPU > 420 Rad > GPUs > 280 Rad > 240 Rad > Top Res > Pump

* The tube Res gets filled from the bottom port.
* Top port has an inner tube that reaches just a bit half way through the tube res
* Top port sucks cold water to the CPU

I hope that is figuratively.. as the D5 is not that fantastic on "suction".
Which means that indeed, you are using pressure to move the liquid from the tube res into the CPU block.

For that to work well, there must be little to NO air in the loop and preferably none in the tube res.
Since air is compressible, any air pocket will work as a brake/buffer.. dropping the velocity/flow that the pump puts into the loop (Head PSI) until the air can no longer be compressed. But for that the liquid volume needs to increase by thermal expansion in order to compress the air . The air volume will also increase by "heating up".. but can be much easier compressed again.. because the liquid is much "stronger" as the air smile.gif
Since from the pics it looks as if there is air in the tube res.. i wonder if you've managed to create a "thermal regulator valve" with your setup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil80 View Post


It looks like this: https://shop.ekwb.com/ek-res-x3-internal-tube-12-16-140mm

Look carefully at the photos from my previous posts. You can actually spot the inner tube there.
TBH - the reason I decided to do this, in addition to my previous stated reason above, is that I wanted to make sure that the GPU's are getting the coldest possible water, that is why the loop is like this.
I don't think that re-tubing any differently will make a huge impact on tubes. But I could be wrong.
I think it's the Phanteks fans and how the PC is located.

The "coldest possible water" is a human thinking error...
if you are very lucky and have a very big rad before the GPUs and a large air to liquid delta, then "the coldest possible water" leaving the rad is like 2°C cooler as when it entered the rad.


Those that say that loop order doesn't matter DO have a point.
While there ARE local variations within the loop (before/after a rad or before/after a GPU) the variations are rarely large enough to go bonkers about, and its much easier to consider the loop as a whole.

If you want the variations within the loop to be big enough to matter.. you'll need A LOT more radiator ... like 3x 360 before the GPU(s), placed externally, like in a room/place which is like only 20°C.

It has to do with the thermal capacities/properties. the whole Watts per meter per Kelvin (W·m−1·K−1)
Water can pickup/release X watts/sec , Air a LOT less. Radiators/heat exchangers become more efficient and can release (or pickup) more energy if the Delta between loop & air is larger. But still limited by physics of course :
copper can only conduct X , air can only "pickup" Y, water can only "pickup" Z ... The weakest element in the chain will determine max performance.

But, i'm sure you know all this.... and i prefere not to go into lecture mode smile.gif
.
post #27 of 46
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the great support and help.

Regarding the suction. I think it does suck the water.. I remember filling the loop and saw how the water rose through the inner tube when the water level was hitting the bottom part of the inner tube.

I didn't creat a thermal valve. I do see that the air pocket is being compressed over time and I have to refill the main XSPC reservoir to compensate.
So do you recommend to get rid of this air pocket?

I can do so by slowly opening one of the top port plugs and close it down when water level as at max.

Will that affect water temps?

BTW, when I first planned the loop, I thought it would be best to have the large rad before the GPU. It's only after a while that I learnt about water being equal in temps after a while.
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post #28 of 46
One thing I don't think I've seen us cover in this thread is your flow rate. I know you said you have your pump at 4, but with your complex run, maybe you simply need more flow. Have you tried turning your pump to 5 to see if it makes any difference? If you have lots of heat on the processor, but the water temps are cool, this tells me one or 2 things. Either there isn't a good transfer of heat from the CPU to the block or water isn't moving fast enough over the jet plates to pull heat away sufficiently.
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post #29 of 46
yes flow rate.....

I fear that the "thermal regulator valve" tube res might have an impact on the flow.. in the sense that it is possibly a big PSI drop
Normally a res sits before the pump and it doesn't matter that much that the pressure/velocity drops to almost nil. Because the gravity acting on the column of water sitting "above" the pumps inlet is enough to assure the pump isnt starved. But having it somewhere AFTER the pump doesnt seem right

i'll try to illustrate my theory (which might be wrong btw)

PUMP 5 PSI (head) creates a theoretical 2 GPM
-> hose 0.1 resistance (mild restriction/pressure drop, mild "slowdown" of max flow to 1.9 GPM
-> WC Block with a resistance of 1.3, "slowdown" to max 1.6 GPM
-> hose 0.1 resistance (mild restriction/pressure drop, mild "slowdown" of flow 1.55 GPM
-> radiator 0.2 resistance (mild/average restriction/pressure drop, mild "slowdown" of flow to 1.5 GPM
-> hose 0.1 resistance (mild restriction/pressure drop, mild "slowdown" of flow 1.45 GPM
-> WC Block with a resistance of 2.3, "slowdown" to max 1.2 GPM
-> hose 0.1 resistance (mild restriction/pressure drop, mild "slowdown" of flow 1.15 GPM
-> Reservoir with a resistance of 0.1, BUT "slowdown" to max 1.0 GPM IF closed/pressurised. Any pressure in the system will be "eaten" by the airpocket until the air can no longer be compressed.

==> Max flow of the whole loop : 1 GPM
OR otherwise put, as long as your pump has more head (in PSI) as the sum of restrictions (in PSI), you're golden

IF "open" reservoir, the max "flow" of a reservoir is what gravity can put on the column and/or what the pump can "suck" because the pressure on the watercolumn is whatever the millibar is at that time wherever you are. The liquid can thermally expand at will, and there is no (compressed) air buffer limiting that. In a "closed" system, your system is pressurised.. always.

How BIG the effect is... that depends.. it could be negible, it could be big enough to drop the flow below the "that's still ok" threshold.


Note: the above numbers are pulled out of a hat... just to illustrate the principle how "back pressure" and/or restriction effect the flow of a loop. If you want a much better illustration i'ld refer to the work that Martin and others have put in to document & calculate the restriction of blocks/fitting/hoses and the effect on "flow" And max flow is determined by the sum of restrictions.
Their spreadsheets & graph illustrate much better what i'm trying to say.



Now, what happens if you put a reservoir AFTER a pump & before block.?

PUMP 5 PSI (head) creates a theoretical 2 GPM
-> hose 0.1 resistance (mild restriction/pressure drop, mild "slowdown" of max flow to 1.9 GPM
-> Reservoir with a resistance of 0.1
-> WC Block with a resistance of 1.3, or... 1.3 back pressure.
While liquid will still flow.. a certain amount will seem to "pile-up" in the reservoir because of .... path of least resistance.
And it will "pile up" as long as the air above it can be compressed.

If the total resistance of the loop is bigger as the energy need to compress the air, then the air will be compressed "first".
And since it is almost impossible to build a loop that has less as 1 PSI resistance.....

It is basically a flow killer.




As the liquid warms up, it expands. And since the airpocket also warms up (and wants to expand)... the point where the air can no longer be compressed gets reached and the pressure equalises and the liquid can no longer "pile-up". And thus the flow increases (as if the air pocket didn't exist) to its "normal" values.
Maybe the point where the air in the tube res can no longer be compressed is when the liquid temp reaches +/- 38 °C ?? smile.gifsmile.gif

To know THAT for sure , it woudl require a LOT of number crunching... it just much easier to bleed the air from the tube res when the loop is "hot" and see if it has any effect.

If it has any effect, then i'm right and a lot of people would have to revise their generalist statements.
If it has NO effect, then i'm still right but deserve to be burned at the stake smile.gif

I'll probably get burned anyways, because i cant explain it clearly enough smile.gif
Maybe only HVAC or (steam) Power plant specialist or professors in thermodynamics can explain it better?
Edited by RnRollie - 10/9/15 at 8:46am
post #30 of 46
You gotta keep your cpu waterblock last in the loop. Go Res. ---> Pump ---> 2nd res/1st Radiator --> GPU ---> 2nd Radator ---> CPU --- back to 1st Res. You could also just skip and go cpu to gpu. I just think it would help cool temps a little, considering in my rig temps hit 40-50c plus on GPU temps and that's very close or at soft tubing temps. I mean having 32-38c water temps going from gpu into CPU doesn't just sound good so having a radiator in between might help, but that' just my opinion.

Here's a a quick mock up, tho as i said before the setup don't matter as long as it's pump to something and ending with cpu block back to reservior. IMO most cpu blocks at around 1.5GPM max. sure you can say they can do 3GPM or something but dang that's alot of pressure behind it.

Here's D4 at 4 specs look like (4) on the picture.





Here's my mockup of your picture:
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INTEL 3930K @ 4.4Ghz Asus P9X79 Deluxe Asus RX 480 4GB G. SKill 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Sandisk Ultra Plus 256GB 2x Raid 0 WD HGST WD 8TB 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Raystorm Waterblock Windows 10 64-bit BenQ 24" 144 Monitor Corsair K70 
PowerCaseMouseOther
EVGA 750watt G2 gold PSU Corsair 750D Razer Deathadder 2015 mellanox connectx-2 dual port 10gbe adapter 
OtherOther
Samsung 960 EVO Aquacomputer Kryo M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 Adapter  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD 1090T @ stock Asrock 970A-D3 headless 16GB (8x2) DDR3 1333mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo (boot drive) 4TB Seagate (4x raid 5) Seagate 8TB Hard Drive Seagate 4TB 
Hard DriveCoolingKeyboardPower
Seagate 4TB Hyper 212 Evo Logitech Wireless keyboard and mouse Coolmaster 600w 
CaseOtherOther
Fractal Design S Black mennanox connect x2 dual 10gbe network adapter LSI 6gbs RAID card 
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Casual Gaming Rig
(18 items)
 
My Nas Box
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
INTEL 3930K @ 4.4Ghz Asus P9X79 Deluxe Asus RX 480 4GB G. SKill 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Sandisk Ultra Plus 256GB 2x Raid 0 WD HGST WD 8TB 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Raystorm Waterblock Windows 10 64-bit BenQ 24" 144 Monitor Corsair K70 
PowerCaseMouseOther
EVGA 750watt G2 gold PSU Corsair 750D Razer Deathadder 2015 mellanox connectx-2 dual port 10gbe adapter 
OtherOther
Samsung 960 EVO Aquacomputer Kryo M.2 PCIe 3.0 x4 Adapter  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD 1090T @ stock Asrock 970A-D3 headless 16GB (8x2) DDR3 1333mhz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo (boot drive) 4TB Seagate (4x raid 5) Seagate 8TB Hard Drive Seagate 4TB 
Hard DriveCoolingKeyboardPower
Seagate 4TB Hyper 212 Evo Logitech Wireless keyboard and mouse Coolmaster 600w 
CaseOtherOther
Fractal Design S Black mennanox connect x2 dual 10gbe network adapter LSI 6gbs RAID card 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › Are those idle temps make sens?