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Cooling for peltier that will be chilling my wc loop. - Page 2

post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

Lol, I'd love to see where you are getting those numbers from.

You are way off.

I know I am way off! Efficiency is more toward the 5-10% than 15%.
I am an engineering physic student, may I assure you that I know what I am talking about?
To avoid you the trouble of googling yourself, let me show you this little experiment:
http://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/peltier_effect_module_cooling_efficiency_test.htm

He was expecting 5% and got 2% efficiency. He probably lost the 3% in the environment while doing the test.

I dare you to find a commercial (and affordable) TEC. Some time ago I heard about a way of doubling the efficiency of peltiers but I never saw any. Even if they were 30% efficient, that is still bad compared to a compressor.

TEC are worthless, get real and go cascade.
Edited by Just a nickname - 10/15/15 at 8:02pm
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post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post

I know I am way off! Efficiency is more toward the 5-10% than 15%.
I am an engineering physic student, may I assure you that I know what I am talking about?
To avoid you the trouble of googling yourself, let me show you this little experiment:
http://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/peltier_effect_module_cooling_efficiency_test.htm

He was expecting 5% and got 2% efficiency. He probably lost the 3% in the environment while doing the test.

I dare you to find a commercial (and affordable) TEC. Some time ago I heard about a way of doubling the efficiency of peltiers but I never saw any. Even if they were 30% efficient, that is still bad compared to a compressor.

TEC are worthless, get real and go cascade.

You are incorrect by a factor of 10.

I have been doing it myself for years. Even my monster triple TEC chiller+block setup used under 600w...a far less amount then your theoretical (and impossible) 1000w TEC for just a 150w CPU. A 200w TEC can handle a modern i7 up to around 4.6-4.7ghz, although we usually aim for double for best performance smile.gif. 50% efficiency is a heck of a lot better then the 5-10% you are arguing.
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post #13 of 25
I have personally done it myself, multiple times on multiple PC builds with multiple setups - may I assure you I know what I am talking about? hypocritesmiley.png
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post #14 of 25
haha, don't you just love it that the people with the strongest opinions about TEC cooling are the ones who know the least. @just a nickname, there are many many many quality threads right here on OCN clearly demonstrating how possible and effective this is, you should do some reading, and your efficiency percentages are laughable, the lowest C.O.P I've ever seen was 0.3, its very easy to achieve a C.O.P of about 0.5 and if your goals are modest its possible to achieve a C.O.P of 1-2 or even more by heavily undervolting the TEC's from their Umax. TEC's have clearly reclaimed there place as a viable cooling option as a step between custom water cooling and phase change. If someone already has all the water cooling gear it makes sense to experiment with TEC's and it is possible to get great results, yes you can get colder temps with phase but that is a whole other kettle of fish and far beyond what most people would like to do. TEC can be as good or bad as you want it to be, that is its beauty, it is a highly flexible and adaptable cooling method as there are so many options available, from the Qmax to the Umax of the TEC's to the direct die or the chiller, TEC can be what you want for far less investment than phase, as long as you know it won't be as effective as phase change, but it can be a great in between step, for most people it is adequate to achieve what they want.

To the OP, I'm going through a similar thing, I will be testing 2 12704 tecs at 12v, they will be plumbed into my water cooling loop with the cold sides on 2 universal GPU block, the hotsides will be cooled by 2 stock intel heatsinks I have but I have my doubts whether that will be sufficient. Regardless, I'd say try to do it with the best heatsink you have on the hotside as the cooler you can keep the hot side the cooler the cold side will be and the more effective the whole setup will be.

Which TEC are you using? And also what components are being cooled by your water cooling loop? you need to get a handle on the heatload you are trying to cool and figure out if the Qc of the TEC will be enough to make a difference, integrating it with a radiator in the loop will make it more of a trial and error case rather than just doing a straight TEC chiller where you merely have to spec the TEC with the correct Qc to handle the heat load, but experimentation is half the fun, if you already have the water block and the heat sink then fire away. I would suggest a generic 12710 or even a 12715 TEC as a good starting point if you want to just integrate a single TEC into your loop and keep the radiator in there.
Edited by LiamG6 - 10/16/15 at 5:42am
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post

You are incorrect by a factor of 10.

I have been doing it myself for years. Even my monster triple TEC chiller+block setup used under 600w...a far less amount then your theoretical (and impossible) 1000w TEC for just a 150w CPU. A 200w TEC can handle a modern i7 up to around 4.6-4.7ghz, although we usually aim for double for best performance smile.gif. 50% efficiency is a heck of a lot better then the 5-10% you are arguing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

haha, don't you just love it that the people with the strongest opinions about TEC cooling are the ones who know the least. @just a nickname, there are many many many quality threads right here on OCN clearly demonstrating how possible and effective this is, you should do some reading, and your efficiency percentages are laughable, the lowest C.O.P I've ever seen was 0.3, its very easy to achieve a C.O.P of about 0.5 and if your goals are modest its possible to achieve a C.O.P of 1-2 or even more by heavily undervolting the TEC's from their Umax. TEC's have clearly reclaimed there place as a viable cooling option as a step between custom water cooling and phase change. If someone already has all the water cooling gear it makes sense to experiment with TEC's and it is possible to get great results, yes you can get colder temps with phase but that is a whole other kettle of fish and far beyond what most people would like to do. TEC can be as good or bad as you want it to be, that is its beauty, it is a highly flexible and adaptable cooling method as there are so many options available, from the Qmax to the Umax of the TEC's to the direct die or the chiller, TEC can be what you want for far less investment than phase, as long as you know it won't be as effective as phase change, but it can be a great in between step, for most people it is adequate to achieve what they want.

@Liam
I simply went on google and found the spec PDF of the TEC you suggest (12715).

Here is what I found:
http://www.thermonamic.com/TEC1-12715-English.PDF



Standard Performance Graph COP = f(V) of ∆T ranged from 40 to 60/70 ˚C (missing line for the last graphs)




We take TH=27C. A quite hot day but the most realistic.
On the graph W vs V, we can see that only the red and black lines (DT of 10 and 0) are able to move enough energy to cool off the CPU. In this case I consider that >100-150W is "enough" energy. We discard the black line because a DT of 0C is not interesting.
By looking at the first graph (COP vs V), we can see that at around 8 to 12V, the COP is less than 10% and range between 5 to 10%.

I really wonder where you guys get your numbers. Yea, TEC might be able to reach impressive COP but that is only if they move VERY little heat.
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post #16 of 25
I get my numbers from my personal experiences smile.gif. With a single 400w TEC undervolted to 200w in a very basic design block I kept a very poor clocking high voltage 4.5ghz 3770k at 41-43c full load with condensation protection turned on(limiting block temp to ~8c) smile.gif. I was using 1.43v on that poor chip!!!

After adding the two chillers, I had my even hotter 5ghz 4790k in the 40s with a synthetic load, and 30s during normal gaming. Cold side coolant was in the single digits with the TEC block only running at ~50% becuase my controller wouldnt allow me to target below 0 and with the hot side being chilled it only needed ~50% duty cycle to hold a 0c cold plate. If I ran the block TEC at 100% it would have been at least 5-10c cooler.

We have come a long way from the hot, inefficient, expensive TECs of 10 years ago smile.gif.
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post #17 of 25
firstly you are looking at it the wrong way, you took the 10*c Dt line on the W/V but then looked at the 60*c Dt line on the COP. The 12715 was not recommended to handle the whole heat load, it was recommended to handle the heat load in conjunction with the radiator, so in this case the radiator is also dissipating some of the heat load and the TEC is dropping the water to ambient air delta further. However I'll play your game, at 12v that TEC has a Qc of 100w at a 20*c delta. at 12v a 20*c delta has a COP of about 0.6, 10*c Dt is more like 0.75, oh also, over the full voltage range of the TEC at 20*c Dt you will notice the COP is as high as 1.5, for a 10*c Dt its as high as 3.6, this should be the little light bulb moment where you go ahh, thats whats possible when you undervolt a TEC, with enough undervolted TEC's in a chiller setup you can achieve the Qc, Dt and COP that you need.

Under no circumstances should you ever calculate COP at a 60*c delta as that is usually the Dtmax, ie only can be achieved with 0 heat load, aside from that, 50*c Dt is also not considered as an achievable delta with TEC's unless you are building a chiller with many under volted TEC's, but with the cost involved at that point phase is a better option. 40*c is the upper limit of what I would say is achievable with a TEC chiller and this is the COP of 0.3 that I state. I've never seen anyone attempting a TEC chiller try to achieve more than a 40*c Dt as that is outside the bounds of reason for TEC cooling, but you are looking at them in the wrong way, you are taking the most inefficient data points and saying all TEC cooling is pointless and inefficient, but that is far from the truth. With careful selection of the right TEC and the right mode be it a chiller set up or a direct die you can achieve very reasonable COP for a very low cost considering most people already have custom water loops before getting into TEC cooling, far more reasonable than the expense of phase.

If we go back to the OP, he has asked to integrate a TEC into his existing loop, for his needs adding a single TEC into the loop is quite feasible to drop his loop closer to ambient, granted it won't get him much benefit other than a lower delta in his loop but it is possible and it will work. To really see some benefit in terms of CPU OC etc he would need to drop the radiator out of his loop and use 2-4 TEC's at about half their rated Umax and with double the Qc at about 30*c Dt compared to the heat load of his components in the loop. This kind of chiller setup is possible with a ~50% efficiency or more and should also allow him to bump up his OC a few hundred mhz.

I think what needs to be said is that we all know that TEC is in no way superior or equal to phase change, everyone knows that and no one is trying to achieve SS phase levels of cooling or efficiency, but what TEC does is put below ambient and even sub zero cooling in the hands of the layman who has the ability to put a water cooling loop together and then wants to go further with it without the expertise or expense of having to go to a phase set up.
Edited by LiamG6 - 10/16/15 at 7:54am
post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

firstly you are looking at it the wrong way, you took the 10*c Dt line on the W/V but then looked at the 60*c Dt line on the COP. The 12715 was not recommended to handle the whole heat load, it was recommended to handle the heat load in conjunction with the radiator, so in this case the radiator is also dissipating some of the heat load and the TEC is dropping the water to ambient air delta further. However I'll play your game, at 12v that TEC has a Qc of 100w at a 20*c delta. at 12v a 20*c delta has a COP of about 0.6, 10*c Dt is more like 0.75, oh also, over the full voltage range of the TEC at 20*c Dt you will notice the COP is as high as 1.5, for a 10*c Dt its as high as 3.6, this should be the little light bulb moment where you go ahh, thats whats possible when you undervolt a TEC, with enough undervolted TEC's in a chiller setup you can achieve the Qc, Dt and COP that you need.

Under no circumstances should you ever calculate COP at a 60*c delta as that is usually the Dtmax, ie only can be achieved with 0 heat load, aside from that, 50*c Dt is also not considered as an achievable delta with TEC's unless you are building a chiller with many under volted TEC's, but with the cost involved at that point phase is a better option. 40*c is the upper limit of what I would say is achievable with a TEC chiller and this is the COP of 0.3 that I state. I've never seen anyone attempting a TEC chiller try to achieve more than a 40*c Dt as that is outside the bounds of reason for TEC cooling, but you are looking at them in the wrong way, you are taking the most inefficient data points and saying all TEC cooling is pointless and inefficient, but that is far from the truth. With careful selection of the right TEC and the right mode be it a chiller set up or a direct die you can achieve very reasonable COP for a very low cost considering most people already have custom water loops before getting into TEC cooling, far more reasonable than the expense of phase.

If we go back to the OP, he has asked to integrate a TEC into his existing loop, for his needs adding a single TEC into the loop is quite feasible to drop his loop closer to ambient, granted it won't get him much benefit other than a lower delta in his loop but it is possible and it will work. To really see some benefit in terms of CPU OC etc he would need to drop the radiator out of his loop and use 2-4 TEC's at about half their rated Umax and with double the Qc at about 30*c Dt compared to the heat load of his components in the loop. This kind of chiller setup is possible with a ~50% efficiency or more and should also allow him to bump up his OC a few hundred mhz.

I think what needs to be said is that we all know that TEC is in no way superior or equal to phase change, everyone knows that and no one is trying to achieve SS phase levels of cooling or efficiency, but what TEC does is put below ambient and even sub zero cooling in the hands of the layman who has the ability to put a water cooling loop together and then wants to go further with it without the expertise or expense of having to go to a phase set up.

Nope not at all, you understood me quite wrongly.
Either I cannot read a graph, either you can't because I am not seeing what you are talking about.

DT of 20C at 100W renders a voltage of 12v.
FIRST graph (TH27C and DT from 0 to 30), DT20 line is RED and gives a sub 10% COP at 12V.
The DT is the difference between the hot side and the cold side. It is assumed that the DT is CONSTANT. The peltier is simply giving off the heat on the hot side that is dissipated by what ever you got there.
Seriously, every source I see, there is not even one that says TEC have a good efficiency (I really looked for something to back your claims). It's not even comparable to compression unless you move really small heat quantity. Why don't you link a source to back your claims? I am the only one giving you concrete data since you guys asked me to. I am a bit sick of this debate. IF you think you are right then let it be, I won't keep arguing for a stupid debate.

@puck I don't know what TEC you are using so I can't comment on your numbers. I need a DT, voltage and data. Prove me I am wrong!
Edited by Just a nickname - 10/16/15 at 8:36am
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post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post


FIRST graph (TH27C and DT from 0 to 30), DT20 line is RED and gives a sub 10% COP at 12V.

Humm.... I read 60% headscratch.gif
post #20 of 25
Yeah just a nickname, the first COP graph contains the 0, 10, 20 and 30*c COP data, the second one is 40, 50 and 60*c DT. You are looking at the 60*c Dt line at 12v which is the only one operating at COP of 0.1. And as I've already explained getting cop data almost at Dtmax is pointless. 20*c Dt has COP of 0.6 and this is a terribly inefficient TEC. Most 20*c Dt graphs for tec have a COP of greater than 1 when run at half umax. I don't really need to cite sources as the info is right there on that data sheet.
Edited by LiamG6 - 10/16/15 at 5:15pm
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