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New 8320E Install Temps With Stock Fans - Page 2

post #11 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

I'm not sure the blowing hot air from the chip onto the motherboard is the greatest idea. I would think that just putting a fan on the VRMs would be better.

Expelling the waste heat out the back with a conventional tower cooler is probably a better idea.

Actually Asrock in the website has asterisk in CPU support list, reccommending exactly to use top-down cooler to help cool the VRM. The air will always be much cooler than the VRMs themselves, so they will always be cooled (gradient hotter-->cooler).


@ OP. Temperatures at idle mean nothing. Temperatures during Prime95 are what matter. A known issue with ALL Asrock 970 is that they run hotter than normal on the socket (what BIOS reports as CPU temp and HWMonitor reports as CPUTIN). If you overclock, you will soon realize that. If not, no problem.

P.S.: The 40C is a fake fixed temp, present in Asrock 970 extreme3 too. Never changes, you can ignore it.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/20/15 at 11:32pm
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post #12 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Actually Asrock in the website has asterisk in CPU support list, reccommending exactly to use top-down cooler to help cool the VRM. The air will always be much cooler than the VRMs themselves, so they will always be cooled (gradient hotter-->cooler).
Yeah, I am familiar with AsRock's suggestion. However, I would still take it with a grain of salt because their 970 Fatality board is not reliable if one goes by all the bad Newegg reports.

Blowing hot air from an FX around the case and onto the motherboard components does not sound like it would be nearly as effective as exhausting it and using a separate fan on the VRMs.

It's better to have air traveling through the case in a single path instead of swirling around in a circle. With my UD3P I found that angling the fan on the VRMs so most of the air would go out the back as exhaust (and blow through the sink not straight down onto it or from below) was the most effective way to reduce the VRM temps. I did not try a down-blowing cooler, though.
Edited by superstition222 - 10/21/15 at 12:05am
post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

Yeah, I am familiar with AsRock's suggestion. However, I would still take it with a grain of salt because their 970 Fatality board is not reliable if one goes by all the bad Newegg reports.

Blowing hot air from an FX around the case and onto the motherboard components does not sound like it would be nearly as effective as exhausting it and using a separate fan on the VRMs.

It's better to have air traveling through the case in a single path instead of swirling around in a circle. With my UD3P I found that angling the fan on the VRMs so most of the air would go out the back as exhaust (and blow through the sink not straight down onto it or from below) was the most effective way to reduce the VRM temps.

The 970 Fatality fails due to manufacturing quality... The air that comes out of the heatsink, when it arrives to the VRM, is much cooler than the mosfets themselves. The heatsink is always hotter than the air that surrounds it. The air in movement, again drops temperature (think of a fan vs static air). The mosfets will always run hotter than the air coming out of heatsink. So it will always cede temperature to the passing by air.

The problem is cooler and case configuration. Many if not most cases, can't cool the VRM well with natural case airflow, when using tower coolers or water coolers. This is why Asrock says to use top down. Of course, if someone puts a fan to blow directly to the VRM, even better. But the basic principle of Asrock is sound. The heat will always move from hotter to colder. The VRMs are ALWAYS hotter than the air any heatsink gives, even more since this air is in movement and gets colder before hitting the VRMs. So the VRMs will always cede heat to the passing air and get cooler.

When you don't have a fan to blow to VRM, having top-down cooler is the next best thing.
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post #14 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

if someone puts a fan to blow directly to the VRM, even better.

When you don't have a fan to blow to VRM, having top-down cooler is the next best thing.
But everyone does have a fan. They can use the fan that came with the stock cooler if they don't want to spend any money.

Also, I think the first part I quoted is the key to what I was saying.

Plus, it's not just cooling the VRMs that are an issue when using one of these down-blowing coolers. The cooler itself is going to probably be sucking in more hot hair because the air isn't being exhausted as well. It's fighting the intake and exhaust fans. The RAM gets hotter... etc.

I really don't see the point in using one of these coolers unless you need a really low-profile setup.

Paired with an internally-exhausting GPU you're looking at hot case temps unless you have really good intake/exhaust flow.
Edited by superstition222 - 10/21/15 at 12:19am
post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

But everyone does have a fan. They can use the fan that came with the stock cooler if they don't want to spend any money.

I don't have a VRM fan. biggrin.gif Sure, if you want to add a VRM fan, the stock cooler fan is a good choice.
Quote:
Also, I think the first part I quoted is the key to what I was saying.

Plus, it's not just cooling the VRMs that are an issue when using one of these down-blowing coolers. The cooler itself is going to probably be sucking in more hot hair because the air isn't being exhausted as well. It's fighting the intake and exhaust fans. The RAM gets hotter... etc.

A heatsink can't ever get hotter due to passing by air. Passing by air, will always be cooler and thus always cool down the heatsink. It's the same reason why heatsinks actually work. If the heatsink could get hotter by passing by hot air, it wouldn't be a cooler. The metal has always more capacity to retain heat and the air has always more heat dispersing capacity. Think of a car left under the sun in summer. If you open the door and sit inside, the air inside the car, even though static, will be hot, but a lot less than touching the metal of the car itself outside. Air will always disperse heat better. This is why heatsinks work and heat will ALWAYS move according to temperature gradient (hotter--> cooler). It's how everything heat related works, it's how planet's climate works. Basically, a VRM at 60C will always cede heat to air at 40C passing by. And the air passing by will ALWAYS be significantly cooler than the heatsink that produced the 40C air.
Quote:
I really don't see the point in using one of these coolers unless you need a really low-profile setup.

Paired with an internally-exhausting GPU you're looking at hot case temps unless you have really good intake/exhaust flow.

Well, i do, but i don't know if i explained well enough. The issue with the PC is to cool the components. As long as you have an decent RPM exhaust fan, you will always expell the hot air soon enough. I have very low RPM cases and even in hot summers, my case air temperatures are in the 35C range under video encoding. For a heatsink to become hotter, you need air hotter than the heatsink itself. For example, to heat a VRM heatsink that is at 60C, you need air at 61C. This will never happen in any case, unless you cover with tape all fan exhausts and holes.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/21/15 at 12:41am
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post #16 of 25
Is it a good idea to have airflows fighting each other?

It is a good idea to blow hot air onto the RAM and other heat-sensitive components?

A CPU cooler is going to be just as effective with high ambient case temps as it is with a case that's kept much closer to the room ambient because hot air is being exhausted not recirculated?

GPUs will be just as quiet with 200-270 watts of AMD FX being dissipated in a circular pattern inside the case?

Why are exhaust towers the top-performing air coolers and not down-blowers?

If blowing hot air onto the VRM sink isn't a problem why do I need to run my VRM fan at high RPMs to cool it? Shouldn't it just cool itself because the ambient air that's going onto it is so much less hot?

It seems to me that cooler air cools more effectively which is why it's a good idea to move the heated air out of the case as efficiently as possible, avoiding air currents fighting each other and recirculation. Otherwise, it seems probable that fan speeds will need to be higher to compensate for the hotter air that's hitting the sinks. Otherwise, what's the point of having side panel fans to blow cool air toward a GPU, to avoid having the GPU fans spin up as high? Why does one get lower CPU temps with an AIO if it's mounted in the front of the case and pulling in outside air, rather than pulling in hot air from inside the case? Why worry about having a direct airflow path (like intake in front to exhaust in back)? Why even bother with intake fans if cool air isn't a necessity?

I guess air cooling is a science that I just can't comprehend. I guess I'll leave it at that. biggrin.gif
Edited by superstition222 - 10/21/15 at 12:56am
post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

Is it a good idea to have airflows fighting each other?

It is a good idea to blow hot air onto the RAM and other heat-sensitive components?

A CPU cooler is going to be just as effective with high ambient case temps as it is with a case that's kept much closer to the room ambient because hot air is being exhausted not recirculated?

GPUs will be just as quiet with 200-270 watts of AMD FX being dissipated in a circular pattern inside the case?

Why are exhaust towers the top-performing air coolers and not down-blowers?

If blowing hot air onto the VRM sink isn't a problem why do I need to run my VRM fan at high RPMs to cool it? Shouldn't it just cool itself because the ambient air that's going onto it is so much less hot?

I tried to explain about thermodynamics the best i could. I can't say it in another way. Tower coolers are better, because the heatpipe design, works best that way. The job of the tower cooler is to cool the CPU, not the VRM. At the same way, if you follow the forum enough time, you will see that most people with VRM problems, are those with tower coolers or water coolers, because the air moved above the VRM heatsink isn't much.

See, they are 2 different issues. One is the attempt to cool the CPU, which is what CPU cooler manufacturers tried to do with tower coolers (the end of the heatpipe is as far away from the base as possible, heat travels a long way to the other side of the pipe, thus best CPU temp) and another is how much this is beneficial to the VRM, which is why Asrock recommends on virtually all of her 4+1 mobos, to use top down cooler. Because Asrock, doesn't care about your CPU temps, it cares about not receiving a board to RMA, because it's her money lost. It's not like Asrock has anything else to gain by putting this reccommendation. Asrock doesn't manufacture top-down coolers, so that she hopes to buy them.

The air is not going around in circles. Blowing against the heatsink doesn't allow for such a strong airflow to win over the exhaust fans. It's more a breeze to help cool the VRMs and RAM. RAM has no problem operating even at 40C and as a matter of fact, most likely than not, RAM's heatsink's temp will also be higher than any air temp.

As for 200W of air dissipating in a circular pattern, again, the fan of a cooler, can't stop the exhaust pattern of a case. Let aside the fact that GPUs have nowdays their own exhaust grills on the back, so most of their own sucked in air, leaves the case at the PCIe level slot, the downdraft of the CPU cooler isn't impeding the air to exit the case, because it's not strong enough to win over the case exhaust fans.

There is no perfect solution for all components. If you think about it, the GPU fan itself, is greatly disturbing the airflow that normally should be front bottom->upper back. But it's better to have it, because it's best for the GPU itself. It's worse for the CPU of course.

It also depends on the case. But if you don't have a VRM fan, top-down is best both for the RAM and the for VRM. It's not like if you put your hand underneath a top-down cooler you will burn your hand from the air! It's the same principle why having a fan blow on your face with 35C ambient is better than not having it. The air in movement always cools, even if it's "hot", as long as it's cooler than the surface it needs to cool.


Anyway, air cooling is much about personal beliefs. I just tried to explain why Asrock thinks that top down is best for VRM.


EDIT:

Here's visual example of why Asrock is right about top-down being beneficial to HER (to help her mosfets from burning and having RMA).

1)This is FX6300 hitting 1.456v without throttling (see HWMonitor):

http://www.overclock.net/t/1494064/ibt-vs-prime95-when-your-validation-is-shattered/50#post_22443536

^ Most users with tower cooler only (and no VRM fan), will never arrive to 1.45v without throttling. If you google around, you will see several people that can't even run 8320 at stock voltage at that motherboard.

2) This is my 8320 at 1.488-4.5



This was IBT VH stable, the screenshot of which is somewhere in the Vishera Owners Club thread. I had also increased voltage further and started IBT at 4.8, but i aborted due to high temperatures. But the VRM wasn't throttling.

All the above, were without VRM fan, with cases that run 2 front 1000 rpm fans, 1 side 1200 rpm and one rear 1300 rpm fan, with top down cooler. Which is worse than 90% of people probably. In deed, it's not the best for CPU cooling (i have Xigmatek Balder and it's about 2C better), but it's better for both RAM and VRM, without having to hang fans to blow to VRM and such stuff. So Asrock is probably right in defending her RMA interests with that reccomendation.
Edited by Undervolter - 10/21/15 at 1:57am
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post #18 of 25
Just for the history, i am not saying that having dedicated fan on the VRMs, is bad. It may even be better, every case is different. But top-down coolers don't heat the VRMs. I have IR thermometer and i actually use top-down coolers or almost top down coolers (Scythe Katana 3), with one exception. And in all cases, VRM temps are much better with the "hot" air blown on them than without. Actually even on the Asrock 970 extreme3, when i had the 8320 at 4Ghz on it, i never broke 60C on the VRMs, thanks to the top-down. And the cooler fans may throw "hot" air on them, but they are high static pressure fans and of big dimensions, so they "hit" the mosfets maybe with not much flow, but they do it with "force". And high speed cools the air and cools the mosfets.

For me, top-down is the best solution for ordinary people that don't want to start hanging fans on their own and don't want to worry about VRM temps. Which is why also Asrock thinks it as practical i guess. It's the same reason that i never buy coolers that have their own backplates and attaching mechanisms. I don't go for 5Ghz. I can go up to 4.5Ghz with my coolers, but i stay at 4Ghz. So why bother with bolts, screws etc? I only buy coolers that clip on the stock AMD retention bracket. 2 seconds to put on, 2 seconds to remove, no need to remove the stock motherboard bracket, end of story. If you want to go 5Ghz, you 'd better buy one of the 1kgr behemoths and start playing with nuts and bolts. But for ordinary people like me, it's only a headache. Asrock thinks of ordinary people, that won't start ghetto-rigging fans in their case...
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post #19 of 25
Thread Starter 
Give me til tomorrow to update it.
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AOC 27" I2757FH IPS LED HD Monitor Zalman ZM-K200M USB Keyboard EVGA 500W 80 PLUS Certified Power Supply Thermaltake Urban S1 Mini Tower Computer Case  
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
Zalman ZM-400M USB Mouse Jeecoo Mouse Pad 320x270x3mm Non-slip Rubber Ba... Z313 Multimedia Speaker System  AzureWave Broadcom BCM94352HMB/BCM94352 802.11/... 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Marvell 6282 Processor( 1.60GHz 256KB) Marvell 88F6282 SoC 256MB DDR3 1600 MHz Seagate Barracuda Green 2TB SATA 6Gb/s 64MB  
OS
LenovoEMC LifeLine 4.0 
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White Lightning
(13 items)
 
   
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AMD Ryzen 7 1700X Processor  ASUS ROG Crosshair VI Hero (WI-FI AC) ASUS GeForce GTX 1060 6GB ROG STRIX  Corsair Vengeance 16GB DDR4 3200 White LED  
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Crucial MX300 525GB M.2 SSD  Toshiba X300 4TB Desktop 3.5  LG WH16NS40 Super Multi Blue 16x Blu-ray Disc  Corsair Hydro Series H110i Extreme Performance... 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Corsair Corsair Air Series AF140 LED Quiet Edi... Windows 10 Pro AOC 2757 27" 1080p IPS Monitor  Seasonic SS-760XP2 Platinum 
Case
Cooler Master Mastercase Pro 5 
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AMD FX-8320E @ 4.1GHz Asrock 970M Pro3 mATX XFX Radeon RX 460 4 GB GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 Gr... PNY Anarchy 16GB Kit (2x8GB) DDR3 1866MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
SAMSUNG 850 EVO 2.5" 250GB SAMSUNG DVD Writer SH-224FB Scythe Samurai ZZ Rev.B CPU Cooler Windows 7 Pro SP1 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
AOC 27" I2757FH IPS LED HD Monitor Zalman ZM-K200M USB Keyboard EVGA 500W 80 PLUS Certified Power Supply Thermaltake Urban S1 Mini Tower Computer Case  
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
Zalman ZM-400M USB Mouse Jeecoo Mouse Pad 320x270x3mm Non-slip Rubber Ba... Z313 Multimedia Speaker System  AzureWave Broadcom BCM94352HMB/BCM94352 802.11/... 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Marvell 6282 Processor( 1.60GHz 256KB) Marvell 88F6282 SoC 256MB DDR3 1600 MHz Seagate Barracuda Green 2TB SATA 6Gb/s 64MB  
OS
LenovoEMC LifeLine 4.0 
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post #20 of 25
You are both correct in your own ways. Asrock says a C-ytpe cooler helps cool their VRMs and they are correct. But that solution works best in low power situations. With low clocks on the CPU and a low power GPU, and lots of case fans that solution works fine.

With higher power hardware like OCed CPUs and powerful GPUs a different approach is needed.

1) Do not use an Asrock board!

2) Get a good twin tower cooler with adjustable fans. These include the Noctua D14/15, Silverstone HE01, and Phantek tc14pe. Drop the center fan as low as it will go and it will blow cool air directly onto the VRMs.

3) Remove the rear I/O panel for better air flow.

4) Enjoy!
Junkyard Dog
(17 items)
 
Blackie
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 1700 Biostar X370 GT7 Sapphire Nitro Fury G. Skill Ripjaws ddr4 3200 16 GB 4x4 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 850 EVO 500gb SSD Western Digital 500gb  Memorex Lightscribe dvd Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 64bit Pixio 27" 1440P yes Seasonic 850 watt  
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Silverstone Redline RL05 Evoluent vertical mouse yes Creative X-FI  
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Sennheiser headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX8370 @ 5 ghz ASUS Sabertooth Sapphire Fury G Skill F3-14900CL9Q-16GBXL 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Western Digital Samsung 850 EVO Memorex Lightscribe dvd Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win X 64 bit Pixio 27" 1440P  yes Seasonic SS-850KM Active PFC F3 
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Silverstone Redline RL02b Evoluent VM4 yes Creative Soundblaster Z  
Audio
Sennheiser 428 headphones 
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Junkyard Dog
(17 items)
 
Blackie
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 1700 Biostar X370 GT7 Sapphire Nitro Fury G. Skill Ripjaws ddr4 3200 16 GB 4x4 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 850 EVO 500gb SSD Western Digital 500gb  Memorex Lightscribe dvd Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 64bit Pixio 27" 1440P yes Seasonic 850 watt  
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Silverstone Redline RL05 Evoluent vertical mouse yes Creative X-FI  
Other
Sennheiser headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX8370 @ 5 ghz ASUS Sabertooth Sapphire Fury G Skill F3-14900CL9Q-16GBXL 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Western Digital Samsung 850 EVO Memorex Lightscribe dvd Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win X 64 bit Pixio 27" 1440P  yes Seasonic SS-850KM Active PFC F3 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Silverstone Redline RL02b Evoluent VM4 yes Creative Soundblaster Z  
Audio
Sennheiser 428 headphones 
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