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post #21 of 46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

I agree, RAID can be part of a backup solution however, it isn't a solution by itself. If some one uses a RAID 1 to externally backup a RAID 1 inside the computer, that is a backup (though two external backups would be better). The OP isn't clear where the RAID is going to be uses, if it the sole repository of data, etc.

I appreciate your concern about using raid in a back up and I understand the risks with raid and maybe my posts weren't very clear but I'm interested in the fesability of using raid 1 with a 3rd HDD and periodically rotating the hdd's to maintain an archive back up outside of the raid.

Seems to me there are some interesting benefits from this concept such as having redundancy and convenience though the downside is the extra cost of the third drive.
post #22 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Actually, there are scenarios where RAIDs are justified in a backup set. If you are backing up a RAID inside the computer that is too large to backup to a single drive, a pair of external RAIDs would be necessary to get the volume sizes needed. Because of that difficulty in backing up a RAID, I do not recommend using RAID in a computer unless continuous, uninterrupted operation is essential (or is highly desirable).

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying but I don't believe this is true. If you have a RAID inside your computer and it is too big to fit on one device, almost every backup solution available has the ability to spread the backup across multiple devices. In any case, RAIDing the backup doesn't change anything.

Imagine a scenario, we have a 5TB hard drive or whatever in our computer. For whatever reason we decide we need 24/7 uptime, so we add a second 5TB drive and mirror them. We still only have 5TB of data to backup (and in fact, with data deduplication in place maybe less). So we backup one of the drives, and for simplicity's sake we just do a straight copy. We don't need to mirror our backups together because there is no need for redundancy; the backup isn't going to be online anyway. If for whatever reason we decide we want to be extra safe and keep two copies, that is fine, but we would want those copies to be separate in separate locations and not RAIDed together. There is simply no advantage to raiding them.

In the case of the scenario you presented, I agree however, using a single volume equal to the original volume for a backup is much simpler and less labor intensive than trying to split a large volume over multiple smaller volumes.
     
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post #23 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

In the case of the scenario you presented, I agree however, using a single volume equal to the original volume for a backup is much simpler and less labor intensive than trying to split a large volume over multiple smaller volumes.

The original volume is all of the data on ONE side of the mirror. There is no need to keep both halves of the mirror to have a complete backup because both sides are identical. I'm not sure where you are getting that we would need to split up the volume; whatever hard drive size you are using in your RAID1 you simply buy one additional drive and bam there is your backup drive. And if for whatever reason the drive you have isn't large enough to accommodate your backup, adding a second drive and mirroring it will not increase the volume size anyway.
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post #24 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outaluck View Post

I appreciate your concern about using raid in a back up and I understand the risks with raid and maybe my posts weren't very clear but I'm interested in the fesability of using raid 1 with a 3rd HDD and periodically rotating the hdd's to maintain an archive back up outside of the raid.

Seems to me there are some interesting benefits from this concept such as having redundancy and convenience though the downside is the extra cost of the third drive.

Yes, you can do this. You can have drive 1 mirrored to drive 2 and then mirrored again to drive 3 for your "backup". I *guess* it could be slightly more convenient then a normal backup but there are numerous disadvantageous, not least of which is in my experience, when people do this type of setup they tend not to do a real backup. So you would be protected against a hardware failure (just like with a normal backup) but nothing else. Deleted a file you need and want to restore it? Too bad, the delete was mirrored. Messed up by a virus? Too bad, that got mirrored too. Power surge took out a drive? Well it probably took out the other drives that were connected too (and lets face it, if you are mirroring drives for convenience, how long before we just decide to leave it in for convenience). Etc. etc.
What is the big deal with just doing a normal backup that so many people want to use these elaborate RAID schemes that are more expensive and less effective then a normal backup?

If you really want to mirror drives for backup, software like syncback is probably a better solution.
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post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

In the case of the scenario you presented, I agree however, using a single volume equal to the original volume for a backup is much simpler and less labor intensive than trying to split a large volume over multiple smaller volumes.

The original volume is all of the data on ONE side of the mirror. There is no need to keep both halves of the mirror to have a complete backup because both sides are identical. I'm not sure where you are getting that we would need to split up the volume; whatever hard drive size you are using in your RAID1 you simply buy one additional drive and bam there is your backup drive. And if for whatever reason the drive you have isn't large enough to accommodate your backup, adding a second drive and mirroring it will not increase the volume size anyway.

Not all RAIDs are mirrors (RAID 1). Many people use RAID 5 or 6 (or, maybe, even 10, 50, or 60) in their computers, which means they can easily have volumes larger than a single drive. The only ways to properly back volumes that large is to either use a matching RAID set or split the backup over several smaller drives, the latter being extremely inefficient.
     
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post #26 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outaluck View Post

I appreciate your concern about using raid in a back up and I understand the risks with raid and maybe my posts weren't very clear but I'm interested in the fesability of using raid 1 with a 3rd HDD and periodically rotating the hdd's to maintain an archive back up outside of the raid.

Seems to me there are some interesting benefits from this concept such as having redundancy and convenience though the downside is the extra cost of the third drive.

Yes, you can do this. You can have drive 1 mirrored to drive 2 and then mirrored again to drive 3 for your "backup". I *guess* it could be slightly more convenient then a normal backup but there are numerous disadvantageous, not least of which is in my experience, when people do this type of setup they tend not to do a real backup. So you would be protected against a hardware failure (just like with a normal backup) but nothing else. Deleted a file you need and want to restore it? Too bad, the delete was mirrored. Messed up by a virus? Too bad, that got mirrored too. Power surge took out a drive? Well it probably took out the other drives that were connected too (and lets face it, if you are mirroring drives for convenience, how long before we just decide to leave it in for convenience). Etc. etc.
What is the big deal with just doing a normal backup that so many people want to use these elaborate RAID schemes that are more expensive and less effective then a normal backup?

If you really want to mirror drives for backup, software like syncback is probably a better solution.

SyncToy and FreeFileSync are two more programs that can be used (I use the latter). These are best used with external drives (or internal type drives used in a dock or enclosure) and connected only when updating the backup. It is not a good idea to use an internal drive for a backup or to leave a backup drive connected at all times.
     
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post #27 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Yes, you can do this. You can have drive 1 mirrored to drive 2 and then mirrored again to drive 3 for your "backup". I *guess* it could be slightly more convenient then a normal backup but there are numerous disadvantageous, not least of which is in my experience, when people do this type of setup they tend not to do a real backup. So you would be protected against a hardware failure (just like with a normal backup) but nothing else. Deleted a file you need and want to restore it? Too bad, the delete was mirrored. Messed up by a virus? Too bad, that got mirrored too. Power surge took out a drive? Well it probably took out the other drives that were connected too (and lets face it, if you are mirroring drives for convenience, how long before we just decide to leave it in for convenience). Etc. etc.
What is the big deal with just doing a normal backup that so many people want to use these elaborate RAID schemes that are more expensive and less effective then a normal backup?

If you really want to mirror drives for backup, software like syncback is probably a better solution.

I don't see it as an elaborate raid setup, pull out a drive and plug in another on the 1st of every month seems a simple routine. I currently use a file sync, several actually and this involves connecting a caddy and pluging in a HDD anyway. I'm considering the raid as it offers redundancy as well as simplicity and it could manage backups from multiple computer's.

Last thing I'm interested in is complicating things.
Edited by Outaluck - 10/17/15 at 10:32pm
post #28 of 46
Thread Starter 
Does freefilesync do scheduled sync's?
post #29 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outaluck View Post

Does freefilesync do scheduled sync's?

It can (it uses Windows Scheduling; I use it to automatically backup Favorites) but you would have to have the drive that you are backing up to running at that time. That means either the backup drive would have to be connected at all times (again, an extremely bad idea) or you would have to remember to connect the drive before the backup is scheduled and disconnect it afterwards, in which case, why bother to schedule the backup in the first place?

I said that I do have FreeFileSync set to back up Favorites but that takes up very little space on one of my internal drives (1MB) and that drive gets backed up to external drives.
     
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post #30 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

Not all RAIDs are mirrors (RAID 1). Many people use RAID 5 or 6 (or, maybe, even 10, 50, or 60) in their computers, which means they can easily have volumes larger than a single drive. The only ways to properly back volumes that large is to either use a matching RAID set or split the backup over several smaller drives, the latter being extremely inefficient.

Well the RAID we are talking about specifically in this thread is RAID1. In the event that we were talking about a larger RAID set, there is still no reason to RAID your backup. In the event that you needed to do a complete restore from backup you would rebuild the RAID array from scratch anyway. Example, a basic RAID 10 setup with 4 disks contains only 2 disks worth of data. Backing up two disks worth of data is MORE efficient then backing up 2 disks worth of data, and then backing it up again. I don't see how you can argue that splitting your backup over two drives is more inefficient then RAIDing the exact same data across 4 drives.
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Gaming Rig
(16 items)
 
FS
(13 items)
 
Toy
(15 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 4770K Asus Hero EVGA 780TI EVGA 780TI 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveCooling
16gb G. Skill 2400mhz Samsung 1TB 840 Evo Samsung 256GB 840 pro EK Supremacy Gold 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
2x EK Acetal Full Cover Block 2x Alphacool 480  24x Gentle Typhoon AP-14 Bitspower 400 Multi 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Swiftech MCP35x2 Windows 7 Pro EVGA Super Nova 1300 Caselabs MerlinSM8 w/ Pedestal 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Xeon E3-1271 v3 Supermicro X10SLL Crucial 32GB ECC Mushkin ECO 240GB SSD 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingPower
Western Digital Red 4TB x 24 212 Evo Phanteks PH-F140HP_BK 2 140mm PWM Fan  Seasonic Platinum Fanless 
CaseOtherOtherOther
Caselabs Merlin SM8 with Pedestal LSI 9271-8i Intel RES2SV240 Intel X540T2 10Gbps 
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