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$1k Budget Skylake Build - Purchasing Soon - Page 3

post #21 of 38
Quote:
Don't bother with DDR4 faster than 2400/2666 for gaming. It gives no meaningful advantage.

It's very marginally cheaper and we have already proven significant advantage in several games. The difference is ~10% more FPS in several of them, though in most of the games where scaling is seen it's min FPS gains of about 3-8% when not GPU limited. It doesn't show up all the time but it's relevant and widespread enough to be worth mentioning.

DDR4 latency at ~3000c15, 3200c16 is not better than ddr3. It's mainly bandwidth gains - but if you leave it at 2133c15, it has far far worse latency, comparable to that of ~1066-1333c9 ddr3.

There was even some drama over launch with several benchmarks being affected notably and some people reporting skylake performing higher with ddr3 than ddr4 - just because they were using decent-ish ddr3 and awful ddr4.

In this case it was a $3 difference between the kit OP linked and the second one linked, not even $10. Maybe you can get 2x4GB of low speed ddr4 for significantly under $62 - it still wouldn't be worth it IMO. The difference that RAM speed makes is regularly as big of an impact as 100-200mhz on the CPU on these games and if you offer 100mhz for $10 to anyone in the Skylake OC thread, they'll very likely take it wink.gif


Your benchmark saying to go with the 390 is using a stock reference 290 and a Nitro 390 which makes the comparison useless since they're so similar, yet one is on the reference cooler and clocks probably throttling while the other is well cooled at higher default clock speeds. We're not saying one is faster or equal speed, just that the difference is extremely small for a GPU.

290 to 290x was always ~4% at the same clockspeed and a lot of people made a huge deal out of it, even paying 30% more. 290x vs 390 should be very small performance differences (which matter less because they're on the GPU)
Edited by Cyro999 - 10/21/15 at 8:58am
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post #22 of 38
Thread Starter 
I've posted in the Skylake Overclocking Guide asking about the ASRock Z170 Pro4 vs KRAIT.

I'll stick with the DDR4 3000 since it's $5 more, better safe than sorry.

With CPU coolers I'm still undecided between keeping the Hyper 212 EVO or upgrading it. I know it'll be a while before I OC my CPU since the games I currently play won't require me to do so. Sure they'll offer more frames but it won't be a difference between a slideshow and fluid gaming right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

We're not saying one is faster, just that the difference is extremely small for a GPU. 290 to 290x was always ~4% at the same clockspeed and a lot of people made a huge deal out of it, even paying 30% more. 290x vs 390 should be very small performance differences (which matter less because they're on the GPU; it's way, way easier to get a 10% advancement in GPU performance than in CPU ST performance).

The cheaper of the two is the 290X so I'm thinking I'll go that route. Only thing that has me worried is the 4GB with the 290X vs 8GB with the 390. There's a $30 difference between the cards.
Edited by myresolution_72 - 10/21/15 at 8:55am
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post #23 of 38
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

It's very marginally cheaper and we have already proven significant advantage in several games. The difference is ~10% more FPS in several of them, though in most it's min FPS gains of about 3-8% when not GPU limited. It doesn't show up all the time but it's definately there! For a $10 difference there's no reason to use bad RAM with Haswell or Skylake.

DDR4 latency at ~3000c15, 3200c16 is not better than ddr3. It's mainly bandwidth gains - but if you leave it at 2133c15, it has far far worse latency. There was even some drama over launch with several benchmarks being affected notably and some people reporting skylake performing higher with ddr3 than ddr4 - just because they were using decent-ish ddr3 and awful ddr4.


Your benchmark saying to go with the 390 is using a stock reference 290 and a Nitro 390. We're not saying one is faster, just that the difference is extremely small. 290 to 290x was always ~4% at the same clockspeed and a lot of people made a huge deal out of it, even paying 30% more. 290x vs 390 should be very small performance differences (which matter less because they're on the GPU; it's way, way easier to get a 10% advancement in GPU performance than in CPU ST performance)


I'm sorry but you're going need need to substantiate your claims of RAM speed helping gaming with some evidence like I have. At the moment you're making unfounded claims.

The R9 290X (when it doesn't throttle) and R9 390 are very similar in performance (The R9 390 has the edge), however the 8GB of faster VRAM and the higher OC potential means it is a better choice.

Check out the benchmarks here - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-amd-radeon-r9-390-8gb-review
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post #24 of 38
Quote:
I'm sorry but you're going need need to substantiate your claims of RAM speed helping gaming with some evidence like I have. At the moment you're making unfounded claims.

It's well known that sc2/heroes engine gets that performance gain, i don't have any hard numbers at the moment for ddr4 @2133 vs 3200 because of engine performance bugs since i got this setup last month but it's clear that the scaling is there and i'm not the only one to post benchmarks in the past showing it. Off the top of my head, there was another guy on teamliquid, a corsair blog and a post on LTT forums specifically dealing with memory scaling in the Starcraft 2 engine.

For most other games, there are several threads on OCN such as this one: http://www.overclock.net/t/1487162/an-independent-study-does-the-speed-of-ram-directly-affect-fps-during-high-cpu-overhead-scenarios/
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post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by myresolution_72 View Post

The cheaper of the two is the 290X so I'm thinking I'll go that route. Only thing that has me worried is the 4GB with the 290X vs 8GB with the 390. There's a $30 difference between the cards.
I don't think you really need to worry, there's like no chance at all you'll ever utilize the 8GB.
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post #26 of 38
Quote:
I don't think you really need to worry, there's like no chance at all you'll ever utilize the 8GB.

It is already notable that 4GB isn't enough to max textures @1080p on several games, even a few 2014 titles - most commonly open world console ports (as they have 8GB of shared RAM then usually come over to PC and have added effects and texture resolution). You don't really need 8GB but can totally use 4.5 sometimes, something that screws over the 970 a LOT and puts pressure on the 4GB cards to drop a setting or two.

That being said, i don't expect VRAM usage to change that much in the next 2 years; we had a sudden spike in VRAM usage because of new consoles. I'm still looking forward to 16GB flagship GPU next year though wink.gif
Edited by Cyro999 - 10/21/15 at 9:08am
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post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

It's well known that sc2/heroes engine gets that performance gain, i don't have any hard numbers at the moment for ddr4 @2133 vs 3200 because of engine performance bugs since i got this setup last month but it's clear that the scaling is there and i'm not the only one to post benchmarks in the past showing it. Off the top of my head, there was another guy on teamliquid, a corsair blog and a post on LTT forums specifically dealing with memory scaling in the Starcraft 2 engine.

For most other games, there are several threads on OCN such as this one: http://www.overclock.net/t/1487162/an-independent-study-does-the-speed-of-ram-directly-affect-fps-during-high-cpu-overhead-scenarios/

I'm skeptical that OP would seem any performance benefit, but for the sake of $5-10 I think he may as well do it smile.gif The price difference here in the UK is about £20.
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post #28 of 38
Thread Starter 
When it comes to a 390 vs 970 I see the 390 is the way to go. The 290X is within a 5 fps range with the GTX 970 but I think the extra VRAM on the 390 may help in the long run. I'm going to go with the 390. It's $29 more than the 290X after rebate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kommanche View Post

I'm skeptical that OP would seem any performance benefit, but for the sake of $5-10 I think he may as well do it smile.gif The price difference here in the UK is about £20.

Yeah it's a $4 difference to be exact so it's a no brainer, better safe than sorry eh?

So back to the CPU cooler: I see that the 6600k stock vs 4.5 Ghz is on average a 5 - 20 FPS increase according to benchmarks. Could this be obtained with a Hyper 212 or do I absolutely have to have the more expensive Noctua? I'm still eyeing an AIO option if that's recommended.
Edited by myresolution_72 - 10/21/15 at 9:38am
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post #29 of 38
Quote:
So back to the CPU cooler: I see that the 6600k stock vs 4.5 Ghz is on average a 5 - 20 FPS increase according to benchmarks. Could this be obtained with a Hyper 212 or do I absolutely have to have the more expensive Noctua?

Saying a gain on FPS isn't a very good way of going about things - usually better to talk percentages. Making a 10fps gain from 20fps to 30fps is way harder than from 100 to 110.

It's also impossible to judge OC by cooler exactly, it depends on a few things. The cooler changes the temperature that you'll get while at a certain voltage, but you also have to take into account that a given voltage has fairly random overclocking results. You can only look at the statistics in the Skylake thread i linked which is created partially for that reason - the most common OC at the moment is ~4.6ghz @1.38vcore (median) while the average is inflated a bit higher because it's pulled up by some great results, yet not held back by many bad ones.

I think that for i5, a 212 would keep temperatures under control decently even at 1.35 - 1.4v. It would just be warmer and more reliant on spinning up fan for temps, it's a smaller heatsink with a smaller fan that can go up to 2000rpm. In actual gaming loads, the CPU cooler either way is probably not the loudest thing in your system - that's mostly a concern for stuff like overnight video encodes if it bothers you. Having lower temperatures does help with CPU longevity, but it's debatable if it's worth the extra money; if longevity is a big concern, you can also just run a 100mhz lower overclock which will drop voltage (being more important for longevity) and also drop temperatures at the same time.

Perhaps something like this could interest you as a middle ground?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF1W87430

I'm also not a particular fan of the clc's, especially 240mm - but they can be useful if you can't easily or effectively control your case temperatures, mostly important for bad cases or a situation like a pair of 300w GPU's i feel. You can mount a radiator on the top of your case, blowing air from outside the case through the radiator which means that a worst case scenario for CLC cooling isn't that bad, while a worst case scenario for air cooling can get bad results.
Quote:
I'm skeptical that OP would seem any performance benefit, but for the sake of $5-10 I think he may as well do it smile.gif The price difference here in the UK is about £20.

US always has super cheap stuff - they even occasionally had deals where 2133c9 / 2400c10 RAM was cheaper than slower speeds
Edited by Cyro999 - 10/21/15 at 10:09am
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post #30 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Saying a gain on FPS isn't a very good way of going about things - usually better to talk percentages. Making a 10fps gain from 20fps to 30fps is way harder than from 100 to 110.

It's also impossible to judge OC by cooler exactly, it depends on a few things. The cooler changes the temperature that you'll get while at a certain voltage, but you also have to take into account that a given voltage has fairly random overclocking results. You can only look at the statistics in the Skylake thread i linked which is created partially for that reason - the most common OC at the moment is ~4.6ghz @1.38vcore (median) while the average is inflated a bit higher because it's pulled up by some great results, yet not held back by many bad ones.

I think that for i5, a 212 would keep temperatures under control decently even at 1.35 - 1.4v. It would just be warmer and more reliant on spinning up fan for temps, it's a smaller heatsink with a smaller fan that can go up to 2000rpm. In actual gaming loads, the CPU cooler either way is probably not the loudest thing in your system - that's mostly a concern for stuff like overnight video encodes if it bothers you. Having lower temperatures does help with CPU longevity, but it's debatable if it's worth the extra money; if longevity is a big concern, you can also just run a 100mhz lower overclock which will drop voltage (being more important for longevity) and also drop temperatures at the same time.

Perhaps something like this could interest you as a middle ground?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UF1W87430

I'm also not a particular fan of the clc's, especially 240mm - but they can be useful if you can't easily or effectively control your case temperatures, mostly important for bad cases or a situation like a pair of 300w GPU's i feel. You can mount a radiator on the top of your case, blowing air from outside the case through the radiator which means that a worst case scenario for CLC cooling isn't that bad, while a worst case scenario for air cooling can get bad results.
US always has super cheap stuff - they even occasionally had deals where 2133c9 / 2400c10 RAM was cheaper than slower speeds

Thanks for explaining that. The H5A is more expensive than the H7? Doesn't the higher number mean a better performer?

So a guy in the Skylake Overclocking thread said the MSI KRAIT was the biggest mistake of his build and it has no LLC control and he's seeing ~.050mv of voltage drop. doh.gif That's unfortunate.
Edited by myresolution_72 - 10/21/15 at 10:35am
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