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[TH] Future of IMFT in Doubt As Intel Starts Its Own NAND and 3D XPoint Production - Page 2

post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

3D XPoint is nothing like HBM or HMC!

Well, they are both bit addressable memory types but other than that, 3D XPoint is about 1/10th the speed but non-volatile. It isn't reasonable to think of them all as similar new faster memory types. HBM or HMC is a bit denser and/or faster but they are basically functionally identical to DRAM.

Everyone seems to think of 3D Xpoint as simply slow DRAM or fast NAND without understanding how being both makes it very different from either and completely revolutionary. mad.gif
3D Xpoint is not suitable as a L4 cache, it is very slow (for cache) and its endurance is too low. You don't want non-volatile cache anyway.

3D Xpoint is for changing how computers work, your hard drive is also your RAM and you have several GB of fast DRAM/HBM/HMC acting as a very large L4 cache. In the short term 3D Xpoint is simply a very fast replacement for NAND allowing super fast SSDs but that is only the very beginning.

At 1/10th of the speed of current DDR3/4 RAM XPoint runs at DDR2 speeds. That is incredibly fast for storage but nowhere near the speed we want for DRAM thus they need to increase speed by many magnitudes for it to be more than non-volatile fast storage.
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post #12 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

At 1/10th of the speed of current DDR3/4 RAM XPoint runs at DDR2 speeds. That is incredibly fast for storage but nowhere near the speed we want for DRAM thus they need to increase speed by many magnitudes for it to be more than non-volatile fast storage.

But it is fast enough to use video, pictures, textures, etc. directly, without loading them into system memory. It should also be cheap enough for 100s of gigabytes to be available.

I suppose thinking of it as having your hard drive be a nice DDR2 ram drive that doesn't lose data when powered down makes the architecture seem similar to simply having very fast storage.

Still, a modern CPU with 16 GB of HBM/HMC and 2TB of DDR2 with power backup (or 3DXpoint) would be a very nice gaming system. wink.gif


Mutiply that by 1000 and add in 20 PB of SSDs and even HDDs and you have a data crunching power house.
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post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post

But it is fast enough to use video, pictures, textures, etc. directly, without loading them into system memory. It should also be cheap enough for 100s of gigabytes to be available.

I suppose thinking of it as having your hard drive be a nice DDR2 ram drive that doesn't lose data when powered down makes the architecture seem similar to simply having very fast storage.

Still, a modern CPU with 16 GB of HBM/HMC and 2TB of DDR2 with power backup (or 3DXpoint) would be a very nice gaming system. wink.gif


Mutiply that by 1000 and add in 20 PB of SSDs and even HDDs and you have a data crunching power house.

So both mass storage and RAM will still be required in the foreseeable future. Hopefully with time current problems will be solved but we've got several years to go yet.
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post #14 of 17
High speed storage should still have some drastic effects on the way things are run. It reminds me of reading about some of the things people did with cartridges in the N64 days, swapping out chunks of game levels on the fly. For streaming world sized level geometry it might be handy.

Even if an SSD could do this decently well already, as-is everything has to be backward compatible with HDD's too, and this new stuff would be getting a new dedicated interface.
Edited by ILoveHighDPI - 10/21/15 at 11:08pm
post #15 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post

Doesn't it need to get a bit quicker before it can replace DRAM?

Either way, I don't mind having something on die like that but I surely do not want to be limited in the amount of system memory I have based on what processor I buy. If moving it on to the processor die means I have to buy a processor with the amount of memory I want then I would rather not move it and keep buying sticks.
HBM2 is released within a few months by both Nvidia and AMD on the next gen top tier GPUs and Intel already has fast 16GB/CPU 3D memory implemented in latest "Xeon Phi"-platform so it's doesn't need to be quicker as it is already a much better alternative than DRAM especially considering the great boost iGPUs will get. Intel already has fabs producing next gen 3D memory so maybe they'll implement that with Cannonlake?
post #16 of 17
Having very fast storage is nice and all, but we need to move to something like "PCI-E 5.0"
or M.2v3 before we have an interconnect that could support storage drives at full speed, and Intel and AMD need to stop being so skimpy on the storage links and graphics lanes and give us triple the amount so that we don't have to choose between multiple GPUs or multiple storage drives.
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post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Having very fast storage is nice and all, but we need to move to something like "PCI-E 5.0"
or M.2v3 before we have an interconnect that could support storage drives at full speed, and Intel and AMD need to stop being so skimpy on the storage links and graphics lanes and give us triple the amount so that we don't have to choose between multiple GPUs or multiple storage drives.

I believe they are making 3D XPoint in a DDR4 DIMM form factor that are electrically compatible (not signal compatible though). That interface should be fast enough. biggrin.gif
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