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Are AMVA monitors too dark for gaming when the scene is dark?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
So I bought this 27 inch budget monitor with an AMVA panel for €195:
http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/dcbint/cpindex.pl?slg=en&scy=tw&ctn=273V5QHAB/96

Mini-review:

+ Colours are almost as good as the twice as expensive IPS I have at work and much better than my old TN.
+ Blacks are good, almost as good as CRT as far as I remember them. There is very little backlight bleed around the edges. Still not pitch black at night, obviously.
+ Coming from a TN panel, I was worried about lower pixel response, but it's not bad. I played Counter Strike and Quake and didn't feel handicaped at all. There's a slight loss of detail on high-res textures when turning quickly, though.

- Wobles when pressing buttons.
- No presets.


If I stopped evaluating here, I'd prefer this monitor over the more expensive IPS panel I have in the office. But there's always a catch.

I bought this monitor because I like playing horror games and games with darker environements (Doom3, Alien: Isolation, Natural Selection 2, etc.) and TN backlight bleed wasn't ideal for it.
Nor is this AMVA. I'm simply shocked how dark things have become in dark areas. Where there was a dark grey wall on a TN monitor, there is a black wall now and the details are hard to spot.

Even in Counter Strike: Source, when I go into the basement on cs_italy, it's hard to see in the shadows and dark corners. This is with the defualt 100% Brightness and 50% Contrast setting. Can't go any higher than that because bright scenes are too bright already.

Are all AMVA monitors like this in games?
Edited by JonFX01 - 10/22/15 at 2:11am
post #2 of 24
Sounds like too much gamma. Also, VA panels have black crush, so black details appear missing. Also, 100% brightness?
 
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post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Sounds like too much gamma. Also, VA panels have black crush, so black details appear missing. Also, 100% brightness?
This will be your usual suspect. In a scene made of mostly dark grays, everything will look pretty black. Obviously, some VA monitors are better at this than others. I'd return your Philips and get a BenQ GW2470H.
    
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post #4 of 24
Yes, it is lcd, not self emmisive display, it will never be good enough for dark grays or dark scenes, va is better but still not even close to enough or crt/plasma/oled/laser projector displays/image. That is only one reason (from 1000 wink.gif ) why lcd should be discontinued and other technology should be mass produced instead so we will also have normal prices of them - similiar to lcd prices.

ps - but this crosshatching on Eizo fg (coating) is probably even worse from middle black crash va issue
ps2 - It is normal some areas are completely dark, see how lights much better look in such scenes.
ps3- btw blinking lights like storm in game or similiar, it instanltly make my eyes hurt on lcd/led and it never happens on crt.
Edited by Alamar - 10/21/15 at 8:21pm
post #5 of 24
If you have a colorimeter calibrate the display for BT.1886, i had the GW2470H to play with for a few days and it was also hard to see details in dark areas after using a TN for years, but after calibrating it became perfect. However i ended up not keeping the monitor because it was just far too slow for me.
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post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malinkadink View Post

However i ended up not keeping the monitor because it was just far too slow for me.
Frequency or response times?
    
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post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

This will be your usual suspect. In a scene made of mostly dark grays, everything will look pretty black. Obviously, some VA monitors are better at this than others. I'd return your Philips and get a BenQ GW2470H.
That's only 24 inch. I will probably return it and get a BenQ monitor for its flicker-free and low blue light features. I tested the Philips for flickering with my camera and sometimes I was able to detect flicker when the brightness was set below 95-100%, but other times there was no flicker at any brightness??? Weird.

Anyway, my eyes are strained and all veiny now. I don't know if it's because of the flicker or if it's because this new monitor is much bigger than my last one.

For 27 inch, I'm considering the BenQ GW2760HS and the BenQ GW2760HM. I don't know which one is better, for example this video review makes it clear the BenQ GW2760HS is superior, but I found an elaborate Korean review claiming the exact opposite with lots of tests.
Both of these monitors only have VA panels and I chose the Philips 273V5QHAB, an AMVA monitor, over them, thinking would give me superior experience. Unfortunately that's not the case according to these Korean reviews (the Philips is also tested; I will post the links when I get home). Isn't AMVA supposed to have superior response or something? I really don't want an even less responsive monitor than the Philips.

Then there are the BenQ EW2740L and the BenQ EW2750ZL. I know nothing about these other than that they're also VA.

Last but not least, the BenQ BL2700HT, which is over the budget, but it's the cheapest 27 inch AMVA monitor BenQ sells where I live and I'd buy it if it provided significantly superior picture over the cheaper VA models - information I don't have.
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFX01 View Post

Isn't AMVA supposed to have superior response or something?
Not necessarily. In fact, historically speaking, VA-type panels are the least responsive of the 3 main LCD types. Of course, as "historically" implies, there are exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFX01 View Post

Then there are the BenQ EW2740L and the BenQ EW2750ZL. I know nothing about these other than that they're also VA.
The latter is very well reviewed, considering its price point, IIRC.

It is, though, pretty hard to recommend any monitor, at all, at the relevant price point, when the HP 25XW and HP 27XW exist, as they're, really, great perf/price. You should consider them. NCX recommended them to me. When i read his (as of now, still incomplete) review, i was thoroughly convinced.
    
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post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

Not necessarily. In fact, historically speaking, VA-type panels are the least responsive of the 3 main LCD types. Of course, as "historically" implies, there are exceptions.
The latter is very well reviewed, considering its price point, IIRC.
I meant AMVA was meant to improve pixel response over VA. Or so I heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

It is, though, pretty hard to recommend any monitor, at all, at the relevant price point, when the HP 25XW and HP 27XW exist, as they're, really, great perf/price. You should consider them. NCX recommended them to me. When i read his (as of now, still incomplete) review, i was thoroughly convinced.
Sadly, unavailable at the reseller I purchased the Philips from.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malinkadink View Post

If you have a colorimeter calibrate the display for BT.1886, i had the GW2470H to play with for a few days and it was also hard to see details in dark areas after using a TN for years, but after calibrating it became perfect.

True, and you don't necessarily need a calibration device.
With proper gamma adjustments (OSD, graphics drivers, Reshade framework) a good modern VA panel should be able to display all dark shades even down to 1-3.
But because of the way the LC molecules are aligned luminance of near black shades still does not quite rise in a linear fashion and they get highlighted off-center that's why its still called the black crush effect of VA panels. Its not as hefty as on the FG2421 on the new panels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

Frequency or response times?

Well he was coming from a 144hz, going back to 60hz from this is nausea-inducing in any case.
Its good many of the 1080p monitors are overclockable, that helps a bit with the flicker-free motion blurring of lower refresh screens.
Response time wise the AMVA+ still stumble a bit on dark shade transitions. A good overdrive (rare) can compensate for that a lot though, to the point where it becomes barely noticeable in most cases.
It's best to try to find the UFO pursuit pictures for the dark cyan background, to see how the OD impulse performs (pcmonitors.info, sweclockers, tftcentral have them)
The SVA (Samsung) panels have slightly faster dark transitions than AMVA+ (AUO) and Super MVA (Innolux), but a bit slower on the others and monitors tested so far had lower contrast as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

It is, though, pretty hard to recommend any monitor, at all, at the relevant price point, when the HP 25XW and HP 27XW exist, as they're, really, great perf/price. You should consider them. NCX recommended them to me. When i read his (as of now, still incomplete) review, i was thoroughly convinced.

They indeed sound like very good examples of IPS done right, and them being almost glossy is gonna be important for some.
75hz too thumb.gif
Edited by Sedolf - 10/22/15 at 5:34am
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