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Fallout 4 specs.. Too much or acceptable? - Page 7

post #61 of 75
Excessive AI always causes lag. That's how it is. It doesn't make the game not-optimized. It's a physical limitation. You can't do anything and everything you want with a game, not even nowadays.
    
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post #62 of 75
Have you guys written a single line of code in your life?

Optimization, and I can't stress this enough, DOES NOT MEAN "pushing current hardware to the limit". Optimization means writing efficient code. It means not using 100 cycles when you can use 12. It has very little to do with core count.
Parallelism is about core count, but since it's such a big and complex word for you, you use "optimization" for that too.

Anyone who has never written and optimized code - refrain from having opinion on CPU requirements. Anyone else - once again - please argue my point. The only argument I'm seeing so far is "games are multi threaded now, that's why they require multi core CPUs", which is a logical fallacy.
There are 1135 threads running on my computer at this very moment. Do I need a 1135 core CPU to use Windows?

"Amateur programmer"? Sorry to disappoint, no, I am a professional programmer and have been for a few years, I strongly suggest you start taking me a bit more seriously and actually try to understand my point instead of just dismissing it.
Edited by ronnin426850 - 10/28/15 at 12:12am
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post #63 of 75
Nobody said that's what optimization is, only you said that, and you seem to think that optimization is the reason a Celeron can't max out a 2015 game. It's not.

As I previously mentioned, there are smart phones with more processing power than your Celeron. I don't see people being ticked off because they can't run a brand new FO game maxed out on their smart phones, so why are you ticked off you can't run it on a Celeron? Use some common sense. My old Phenom 9150e quad core wouldn't run it either, and I wouldn't expect it to, which was why I eventually upgraded. Duh. You're just grasping straws man. It takes processing power to do new things. It has nothing to do with optimization.

It seems the way you think, you'd expect this brand new game to run on a P4, and if it can't, it's not optimized right? Wrong.

You want to see an unoptimized game? Try GPS3. It's an unoptimized bug riddled game from 2013 that won't run properly even on the latest and greatest hardware. That is unoptimized.
    
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post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0llinlacs View Post

Nobody said that's what optimization is, only you said that, and you seem to think that optimization is the reason a Celeron can't max out a 2015 game. It's not.

As I previously mentioned, there are smart phones with more processing power than your Celeron. I don't see people being ticked off because they can't run a brand new FO game maxed out on their smart phones, so why are you ticked off you can't run it on a Celeron? Use some common sense. My old Phenom 9150e quad core wouldn't run it either, and I wouldn't expect it to, which was why I eventually upgraded. Duh. You're just grasping straws man. It takes processing power to do new things. It has nothing to do with optimization.

It seems the way you think, you'd expect this brand new game to run on a P4, and if it can't, it's not optimized right? Wrong.

You want to see an unoptimized game? Try GPS3. It's an unoptimized bug riddled game from 2013 that won't run properly even on the latest and greatest hardware. That is unoptimized.

Dude, no, for frag sake, YOU use some common sense! You dragged my Celeron in the conversation, I never mentioned it before that. And again, since you obviously do not understand from the first time - I have had, and currently have, many rigs of various price ranges, I have an i3, several Athlons, an i5, an old i7, have had Pentiums, Xeons, Opterons, just shut up with the stupid Celeron already, I never used it in an argument! ADDRESS MY ARGUMENTS.
Or else I'll start addressing the fact that you've accumulated the mindbogging 47 rep over the past 7 years.
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post #65 of 75
Lol, really dude? Over 300 posts and 40 of those reps are from the last few months after I left Toms Hardware, so try again.

I understand perfectly well what optimization is. The difference between you and me is that I know optimization has its limits, it won't magically make a new game run on old hardware. You expect miracles from optimization and it just doesn't work like that. There are other limitations, such as cough cough... hardware.

Your argument is that FO4 isn't optimized due to the high CPU requirements. Since your argument is purely speculation, it's not even worth debating.

And you dragged your Celeron into this all by yourself, you know, your $30 CPU that runs Battlefront with only a few FPS less than an i7 920. You said that, not me. Others replied back to you and here we are now.

So, have I covered your arguments? Or did I miss something?
    
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post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0llinlacs View Post

Lol, really dude? Over 300 posts and 40 of those reps are from the last few months after I left Toms Hardware, so try again.

I understand perfectly well what optimization is. The difference between you and me is that I know optimization has its limits, it won't magically make a new game run on old hardware. You expect miracles from optimization and it just doesn't work like that. There are other limitations, such as cough cough... hardware.

Your argument is that FO4 isn't optimized due to the high CPU requirements. Since your argument is purely speculation, it's not even worth debating.

And you dragged your Celeron into this all by yourself, you know, your $30 CPU that runs Battlefront with only a few FPS less than an i7 920. You said that, not me. Others replied back to you and here we are now.

So, have I covered your arguments? Or did I miss something?

Well, no, my argument was that optimization does not imply higher minimum requirements.

You can't say "games now require quad-cores due to optimization". Optimization is exactly the opposite - after optimization, code is able to run on slower hardware than before optimization.

Which is why we use this world, the code becomes "optimal", most effective, and doesn't require faster hardware.

The same way when you optimize the weight of a sports car, it no longer requires 500hp engine to accelerate fine, it can do with 350hp.

This is my argument, and I am yet to hear a logical counter to it. "Your argument is that FO4 isn't optimized due to the high CPU requirements. Since your argument is purely speculation, it's not even worth debating." <- That the best you can do?
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post #67 of 75
Quote:
OS: Windows 7/8/10 (64-bit OS required)
Processor: Intel Core i5-2300 2.8 GHz/AMD Phenom II X4 945 3.0 GHz or equivalent
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA GTX 550 Ti 2GB/AMD Radeon HD 7870 2GB or equivalent
Hard Drive: 30 GB available space

This is maybe a 500$ computer.
Easily reasonable for min specs for AAA title.

I believe these requirements are less than the Witcher 3, and that should hopefully say something about how well this game should look..... "should"

Please do note.
Requirements are based on stock settings, no over-clocking and I believe reference video cards.

If you don't meet the requirements, and you have a console, there you go. Otherwise turn down the settings
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post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

You can't say "games now require quad-cores due to optimization". Optimization is exactly the opposite - after optimization, code is able to run on slower hardware than before optimization.

I think you're limiting the scope of what "optimization" means in regards to developing SW or FW on a given HW platform. I think your definition of it, is one type of optimization, where you have a fixed HW platform. The other sort of optimization is that where you make use of features on a newer more advanced HW platform. You said you've done embedded programming on a 7MHz processor. Maybe this was an MCU like an 8051 or ARM Cortex. Lets say you got a new version of that MCU and it had a new HW accelerator to perform a function that was previously done purely in code (e.g. a DSP function). You could leverage that HW acceleration and say you've "optimized" the solution for the new platform. So it runs like a champ on the new HW, but not on the older HW.

I'm just saying that you're right in one sense, but you've limited the definition of what "optimization" can mean. I think that in the case of FO4, its quite probably that they have "optimized" for newer HW (aka made use of new features), rendering the performance on older HW sub-par. FO4 is a high-end title and its going to be designed to use the latest and greatest in HW and OS developments. No point trying to "optimize" (other definition) for much older platforms.
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post #69 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by sti_boy View Post

I think you're limiting the scope of what "optimization" means in regards to developing SW or FW on a given HW platform. I think your definition of it, is one type of optimization, where you have a fixed HW platform. The other sort of optimization is that where you make use of features on a newer more advanced HW platform. You said you've done embedded programming on a 7MHz processor. Maybe this was an MCU like an 8051 or ARM Cortex. Lets say you got a new version of that MCU and it had a new HW accelerator to perform a function that was previously done purely in code (e.g. a DSP function). You could leverage that HW acceleration and say you've "optimized" the solution for the new platform. So it runs like a champ on the new HW, but not on the older HW.

I'm just saying that you're right in one sense, but you've limited the definition of what "optimization" can mean. I think that in the case of FO4, its quite probably that they have "optimized" for newer HW (aka made use of new features), rendering the performance on older HW sub-par. FO4 is a high-end title and its going to be designed to use the latest and greatest in HW and OS developments. No point trying to "optimize" (other definition) for much older platforms.

True, true, I agree with what you're saying. I've been actually trying to broaden the definition of "optimization" among the folk here, which is why I focused on the type of optimization that they didn't seem to get. The only reasoning I've heard so far, your post aside, was "if it's using all cores, it's optimized", and I tried to explain that there are other aspects as well.

Just to see if I understand correctly, what you are saying is if I'm making a game in 2007, and I decide to make complex geometry for a rocky road, and then in 2008 HD4xxx comes out, which has a dedicated tessellation preprocessor, I would optimize my game to utilize that chip, raising performance on the new platform, but breaking compatibility and potentially hindering performance on old platforms.

This would be true, however here there are no differences in the feature set between a Haswell Pentium and a Haswell i5. It's only the core count, and cache, respectively. While it is possible that FO4 is heavily cache-dependent, it's not very likely. Also, they are not listing recent platforms, mind you, that is 5 year old hardware. The only "feature" is the core count. It is very good when a game can spread itself across many cores, but it is a shocking misconception here on OCN, apparently, that you need 4 cores to run 4 threads. A single core switches many times between many threads, even when using the computer for mundane tasks, like browsing, and it does so with sufficient simulated parallelism. So one fast core will do exactly the same job as two slow ones in non-critical systems. This is no excuse for demanding 4 physical cores as bare minimum - on Low settings, the game should run reduced physics, and it should take into account the low view distance when running its AI.

Do you think FO4 will have drastically better AI and physics than GTA 4? Drastically better? Or Witcher 2? Or Skyrim? GTA 4 requires C2D 1.8Ghz, Skyrim - C2D 2.0Ghz, and W2 - C2D 2.2Ghz, to run a persistent world, multithreaded AI, and physics simulation.
Yeah, sure, those words sound big when you throw them in one-sentence arguments, like "it requires quad-core to run AI and physics". But AI these days is not much better than in games like the mentioned, which ran on potato PC, compared to today's standards.
And the other suspect, Physics, can run on the GPU. Havok is supported by every piece of graphical hardware on the market. To not run physics on the GPU, especially in a CPU-bound game, like FO4 shapes up to be, is a crime in developer's world.

So what eats all that CPU power? It's either bad AI or bad physics. There is no option left, where it's actually something that's done properly. Or at least I don't see such option. If anyone knows of something that is not AI and is not Physics, and eats up CPU, and GTA 4, Skyrim, and Witcher 2 didn't have it, and it's new and revolutionary to FO4, or just done in a much more elaborate manner, please do share.
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post #70 of 75
In all likelihood, I would say that the requirements are merely a marketing ploy to get people less knowledgeable than those who frequent OCN and other tech sites to spend money on upgrading their dual core or lesser quad core CPUs.

The engine is largely unchanged from the one used in Skyrim and FO3, just with incremental additions such as built in DX11 support and usage, you can see that from the screenshots and videos. As such I would be very surprised if a quad core was actually required, but this is just my opinion.

Wait until the game comes out, try it with dual and quad core CPUs - then judge the extent of its optimization, parallelism or otherwise. System requirements is no longer the indication of parts needed that it may once have been.
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My baby
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790k@4.9GHz, 1.36v (4.5GHz uncore) Maximus VII Impact MSI 980 Ti Gaming 6G Corsair Dominator Platinum 16gb 2133 CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
2x 840 EVO 500GB Toshiba XG3 1TB (M.2 NVMe SSD) EK Supremacy Evo & VGA Ek xres 140 pump 
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4x Gentle Typhoons 1850rpm intake 4x Gentle Typhoons 1450rpm exhaust PE-240, XT45 120, SR-2 360, G2 240 slim rads windows 10 
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Acer Predator XB270HU Corsair Strafe RGB EVGA G2 850 PSU Suppressor f51 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G502 XXL neoprene mousemat goodness Bose companion 20 Sennheiser HD 650 
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GSX 1000 
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i7-4710MQ W230SS gtx 860m HyperX Impact 16GB 1600MHz CL9 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Video Games › PC Gaming › Fallout 4 specs.. Too much or acceptable?