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Cooling newb :D Help me trick out my Corsair 900D big rig! - Page 3

post #21 of 30
I agree with hanzy there on matter with bay reservoir.
They are hard to clean, and it will most likely increase the length of tubing you will be needing as well (especially with such a big case).

Your best bet would be tube reservoir.
They can be completely disassembled for cleaning, and you have the option of using borosilicate glass tube which is practically stain-proof compared to the standard acrylic (if you are considering of adding dye or using colored coolant)

Since you're using Xeon processors, I presume you're not going to be overclocking any.
In that case, a single 480 radiator would be enough. Unless you want to keep things whisper quiet, then I'd add another 480. (a bit of warning: here in overclockers forum, we tend to push people to use AS MUCH RADIATOR space as possible... and then some tongue.gif )
Lookup for JayzTwoCents youtube channel on the matter of noise vs radiator. He had also worked on a 900D before he moved to a caselabs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aDID5S41_A
post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by washu99 View Post

I agree with hanzy there on matter with bay reservoir.
They are hard to clean, and it will most likely increase the length of tubing you will be needing as well (especially with such a big case).

Your best bet would be tube reservoir.
They can be completely disassembled for cleaning, and you have the option of using borosilicate glass tube which is practically stain-proof compared to the standard acrylic (if you are considering of adding dye or using colored coolant)

Since you're using Xeon processors, I presume you're not going to be overclocking any.
In that case, a single 480 radiator would be enough. Unless you want to keep things whisper quiet, then I'd add another 480. (a bit of warning: here in overclockers forum, we tend to push people to use AS MUCH RADIATOR space as possible... and then some tongue.gif )
Lookup for JayzTwoCents youtube channel on the matter of noise vs radiator. He had also worked on a 900D before he moved to a caselabs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aDID5S41_A

 

You wouldn't even need a second 480 to keep that system quiet. 970s put out little heat, and those two Xeons aren't going to put out all that much heat either. He'd be more than fine with running a single 480, and maybe have the fans down @~700rpm if he has good fans like Gentle Typhoons.

post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxjedi View Post

Thanks diggiddi smile.gif

Will it cool two CPUs? Looks like only one. One thing I don't get is why custom loops need reservoirs. Do they run out of liquid? The self contained kits like the predators don't need them (or they are maintenance-free and built-in). It has me wondering if I should just get a 240 predator for each CPU. Less risk of leaking and I wouldn't have to worry about constant monitoring of liquid levels.

Also just thinking out loud, if I build a custom loop it seems to make sense that the flow should go from res/pump to radiator to cpu block to 2nd radiator to 2nd cpu block and back around. That seems smarter than radiator to cpu to 2nd cpu to 2nd radiator to res/pump...


It will cool 2 CPU no problem. As a rule of thumb, you need 1x120 radiator space MINIMUM for every component in your loop you need to cool down.

Custom loops normally use reservoir because it it easier to maintain:

1.
You need to remember that with most tubing, you still have some pores for air to move through. In essence, you're going to still loose coolant through evaporation, even in a sealed system.
If your coolant temp is rather high, it will increase the rate of loss.
On All-in-one water cooling kits, they choose tubing with extremely small pores to minimize this effect. But I seriously do not think the problem is eliminated.

2.
It is much easier to bleed air bubbles on a system with a reservoir. The reservoir simply provides the cooling system a place where the air bubbles can rise up and out of the water.

On the matter of loop sequence, it doesn't really matter.
No matter which way you switch them around, at most the temp difference would be 1 deg C.
Just need to remember that the reservoir needs to come before the pump and CPU blocks usually have a designated inlet - outlet (putting it in reverse will impact cooling performance significantly).
Other than those guidelines, anyone here would just recommend you to use whichever sequence that uses the shortest tubing.

3.
Coolant reserve.
As I've just explained, you have some coolant loss over time on any water cooling system. Having a reservoir means you don't have to worry about it for a VERY VERY long time. Even the smallest size reservoir would be more than enough to maintain water level in the loop until your next maintenance in 6-12 months)... unless you have a leak that is tongue.gif

Most people like to use the bigger reservoirs, because it simply looks nicer on their big case. It does not have much effect on the temp.
Edited by washu99 - 10/24/15 at 11:37am
post #24 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzy View Post

If I were doing that build I would watercool the GPU too, but that's just me.
The 970 runs cool sure, but watercooling will definitely bring about some higher clocks, quieter overall system etc...
So if you were to watercool the GPU I would get a different model that has a supported waterblock. Universal blocks are great and all, and they can be reused from GPU to GPU but the looks of a block designed for the GPU cannot be beat IMO.

If including the GPU I would set budget at $650-$1000.00.
No GPU $400-500.
When I went custom water I dropped about $1500.00 at least. That was in a 900D.

Personally I do not think Bay Reservoirs look good in the 900D and there is so much space for a tube style reservoir that is the way to go.

If you want to flesh out the case I think a 420 rad up top and either a 480, 360, or 240 below. That is more rad space than you probably ever need.
If just doing the CPU's one up top or one below would be fine. The 420 up top would be my choice.

Fans! These can be expensive. Pick a nice quiet fan suited for watercooling.

Pump. I personally prefer redundancy when it comes to pumps, so two pumps in series. One is fine though, up to you and your needs really.

Tubing. If you not using acrylic/PETG do yourself a favor and get tubing without plasticizer.

Fittings. Get whatever you want really. I prefer compression fittings to barbs.

Fluid. I swear by Mayhems stuff, but distilled water w/the proper additives is fine.

Kits. A kit would work fine for you as well. Just get a few more fittings, and another block.

I do a rough plan of where you want everything to go. Tube routing, rad placement, pump and res placement etc...
Do some approx measurements of tubing runs.
Fittings? Are you going to need a special rotary fitting to get a tubing run how you want?

Ok. Let's jump in. Some of these responses may be out of order.

I don't want an acrylic res because as an aquarium keeper I know that it's not decent material.

Does using glass have an effect on what tubing to use?

I can't use cheap tubing. This is a once in six years dream build for me. I can't afford to make disposable systems every 1 to 2 years. This machine will be a workhorse and it will always be on. Component failure isn't an option, so redundancy is key.

This brings me to your comment about pumps. You said two pumps in series. As an experienced aquarium keeper for many years, I know that the are issues with pumps in series due to impeller technologies. Have you ever seen pumps in parallel that are then looking like this? ...

--<=>-- (tubing forks, two pumps side by side, tubing reconverges and the loop is rejoined)

Leaks = can't afford that at all. I have a rig that's run a corsair AIO 120mm on a single i7 cpu since 2009 and I've never had a single issue with leaks. Now that I'm buying better processors, RAM,and mobo that all costed significantly more, that's no way I can leak on that. My fittings have to be flawless and my tubing has to not deteriorate or fail against the test of time. And the fittings can not compromise on quality and risk leakage. This loop has to be watertight like a nuclear submarine.

Since I've spent so much on the system, and still might but yet another PSU just to support all the hard drives and custom loop, there's no sense in getting sub par cooling components. I very literally cannot afford a low quality system for cooling ;-)

Sure, I'm not purposely trying to spend as much as I can. I'm trying to be cost effective and get the best deals on truly good parts.

Given all this, and that I really have no interest in WCing the GPU, what tubing, fittings, and fans do you recommend? Also, is it going to ruin tubing to leak test with UV dye? Also, is the parallel pumps vs serial pumps an issue of concern? What are the glass tube reservoirs that would be best for this 900D in terms of size and brand?

As for the fan areas of the case where I don't fill with rads, do I need different fans than I need for the rads? I think yes, but don't know which.

So many questions and I feel like I've barely scratched the surface.
post #25 of 30
Using a glass res will not affect which tubing you use.
There are a lot out there, EKWB has a new glass res out there.

As far as cheap tubing, yeah, even the good stuff is not that expensive.
I am currently using Primochill Advanced LRT. I have had the same tubing in this build for ~3 years running Yellow Pastel. No sign of degradation yet.

I cannot speak to running pumps in parallel because I have never done it.
I have been running my loop like this for ~ 3 years no problems.
I felt I needed the extra head pressure due to 3 rads, 3 blocks, and one long tubing run that i had to do.
Have you seen the Swiftech MCP35X2? If that was available when I did my loop I probably would have went for that.
One feature I like in my pumps is PWM based on temp.
My pumps will ramp up as my water temp goes up, automatically. Its great. Its Handy for bleeding as well.

Another PSU for the loop and accessories may be a bit overkill.

One tip on leak testing:
Power all your watercooling stuff up, while the PC is actually OFF.
I just connect everything to a spare PSU which is jumped over of course.
That way if you do have a leak you can quickly switch the PSU off. Seeing as main components are not on there is less chance of damaging something.
Just dry out the component really well and it should be fine.
Also, paper towels for an extra preventive step!
Of course I use this method to bleed the loop as well.

Another tip on leaks:
You will probably have one at the start. That is why you do leak testing. Its no big deal.

Another tip that relates to this:
If you do go custom loop you're going to want to flush the NEW components as well. This will get out any debris, welding remnants(the term escapes me right now, flac? flashing?).
Its kind of surprising the amount of crap you get out.

UV dye should not ruin the tubing, possibly stain it over time though? Sure.
Might be a little excessive to leak test w/ UV dye but if you feel you need to go for it.
You can always run colored tubing, so the color of the coolant doesn't really matter, and then staining is not a big deal.

Fans for case airflow will be a bit different than the fans on your rads, yes.
Volume vs pressure etc...
There is a ton of info out there on fan testing etc... so read up!

Given all this, and that I really have no interest in WCing the GPU, what tubing, fittings, and fans do you recommend?
-A tubing without plastizer. Theres a lot out there. Like I said I am currently using PrimoChill Advanced LRT and I am happy with it.
*What are you going to use for coolant? Most coolant manufactures will have a list of compatible tubing, at least I know Mayhems does.
-Fittings. Again there's a lot out there. I mainly use Bitspower and I had zero issues with their product. I have used the EK fittings for a friends build and those were fine.
-Fans. I am currently using Corsair SP's for my rads with the step down resistors and Corsair AF for intake/exhaust. I initially left in the stock intake/exhaust fans but one of them failed so I replaced with the AF models.
Much quieter and wish I replaced them sooner.
Again there is a lot out there for fans. I had Gentle Typhoons on a build I did for a freind years back and those were great too. Apparently they're no longer made?!

In regards to loop order, it really does not matter too much. Really the only rule is Res before/above pump(s).

I saw a post of yours a bit back referencing two EK Predator kits.
That would work just fine. It could look pretty cool two with both mounted up top?
Or that 480 kit someone else listed. Just order another block and fittings as needed.
Realistically that setup would have very similar performance to a custom loop while being a hell of a lot easier to deal with.

What it boils down to is do you want the aesthetics of a custom loop? Do you want the enjoyment of figuring it out and piecing it together etc...?
Thats what the difference is to me vs. an AIO setup. Creativity. Craftsmanship. Dedication. Art.

There are downsides to custom water too, that's for sure:
Upkeep. Flush at least once a year etc...
Complexity. It makes servicing the computer a hell of a lot harder. Draining, and filling, and bleeding.
Cost. For example when new GPU's come out I need new blocks. It usually adds ~$200 to each GPU upgrade. Not so much of an issue for you YET, but once you get those CPU's under water it won't be long before you put that 970 under as well, lol.
Edited by hanzy - 10/24/15 at 1:25pm
Just another 900D
(32 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 4770K MSI Z87 Mpower MAX EVA GTX 980Ti SC EVGA GTX 980Ti SC 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Gskill Ripjaws X Samsung 840 EVO WD Blue Crucial MX100 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Crucial MX100  NONE ATM EK Supremecy Acetal/Copper Tons of Black Bitspower 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP EK CoolStream 480 XT Series EK CoolStream 240 XT Series 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Titan X EK CoolStream 420 XTX Series EK RES X3 250 Primochill Advanced LRT Clear 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Mayhems Pastel Yellow Win 7 64 Bit ASUS PB278Q  Qnix QX2710LED @ 96Hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K90 EVGA SuperNOVA 1300 G2(in process of full sleev... 900D Corsair M65 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Razer Creative Soundblaster Z  Schitt Valhalla Phillips Fidelio X1 
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Just another 900D
(32 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 4770K MSI Z87 Mpower MAX EVA GTX 980Ti SC EVGA GTX 980Ti SC 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Gskill Ripjaws X Samsung 840 EVO WD Blue Crucial MX100 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Crucial MX100  NONE ATM EK Supremecy Acetal/Copper Tons of Black Bitspower 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP EK CoolStream 480 XT Series EK CoolStream 240 XT Series 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Titan X EK CoolStream 420 XTX Series EK RES X3 250 Primochill Advanced LRT Clear 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Mayhems Pastel Yellow Win 7 64 Bit ASUS PB278Q  Qnix QX2710LED @ 96Hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K90 EVGA SuperNOVA 1300 G2(in process of full sleev... 900D Corsair M65 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Razer Creative Soundblaster Z  Schitt Valhalla Phillips Fidelio X1 
  hide details  
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post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzy View Post

Another PSU for the loop and accessories may be a bit overkill.
Are you sure? I'm going to be paying 6 to 8 x 3.5" WD Black series hard drives in addition to this other stuff. I need to do some more math I guess.

I'll answer your points more in depth in the very near future.
post #27 of 30
Let me just chime in on the matter of parallel pump config you mentioned:

--<=>-- (tubing forks, two pumps side by side, tubing reconverges and the loop is rejoined)

Such a setup would normally be disastrous. If one of the 2 pumps died, the coolant flow would go haywire. Instead of serving as a backup, after one of the pumps die, coolant that is being pumped by the remaining pump would go back through the dead pump (with it being the lower resistance path).

Nowadays, you have these : http://www.performance-pcs.com/alphacool-check-valve-g1-4-ig-chrome.html
Plug 2 of these on your parallel pump config and you'd be just fine.
Even better, you can add a few valves and QDC to be able to replace the dead pump while the PC is running.
I would still recommend turning off the PC while you do this though.

FYI. I only have a vague idea on how the check valve works. While I'm sure it will work just fine initially, I do not know how reliable the component will be over long periods of time, especially if you overextend loop maintenance cycle and have some gunk/debris inside the loop.
On such a system with extremely long maintenance cycle, I'd recommend using a filter that you can check visually.


Now for a more traditional tried and tested method of pump redundancy In PC water cooling, if you want redundancy, go for 2 pumps in serial. Any of the 2 pumps die and you wouldn't notice it unless you set some kind of alarm.
I got mine set in serial. Had a pump died probably for weeks before I notice it on mine. Was using it like normal the entire time. After finding out, it took another 1 week for me to get a replacement pump (no water cooling retailer anywhere near my location)

And for an added benefit of setting 2 pumps in serial, you would be getting a higher head pressure.
Edited by washu99 - 10/25/15 at 6:22am
post #28 of 30
Found this video that explains the usage of the check valve / non-return valve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJRMmYYZDZ4

Check on time = 5:44 for a proper explanation on the problem with parallel pumps.
It explains it much better with the drawing.

Non-return valve seems to have been around for ages already in the plumbing industry.
We probably don't normally use them in PC water cooling because of the pressure specification and lack of interest in them.
Not that many would do dual pump in parallel, especially due to the fact serial would yield better results with the cons just being the inability to use the PC when you are changing pump, and lengthier time necessary to do so.
Edited by washu99 - 10/26/15 at 9:13am
post #29 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by washu99 View Post

Found this video that explains the usage of the check valve / non-return valve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJRMmYYZDZ4

Check on time = 5:44 for a proper explanation on the problem with parallel pumps.
It explains it much better with the drawing.

Non-return valve seems to have been around for ages already in the plumbing industry.
We probably don't normally use them in PC water cooling because of the pressure specification and lack of interest in them.
Not that many would do dual pump in parallel, especially due to the fact serial would yield better results with the cons just being the inability to use the PC when you are changing pump, and lengthier time necessary to do so.

Thanks for the feedback @washu99 :-)

I have to use check valves in my aquarium loops. I'm beginning to wonder if a high end aquarium filter with built filter wouldn't work! The Rena Filstar 400 for example would potentially generate enough consistent head pressure to run a loop on 10 machines at the same time! Totally bizarre idea I know.

I'm actually starting to seriously consider just using one ekwb predator 240 power processor and never have to worry about maintenance or leaks. I didn't know that custom liquid cooling could be so risky.
post #30 of 30
I would not recommend a high end aquarium pump-filter. Generally, it is just not that practical.
1. Takes a lot more space
2. The filtration is far more than necessary. At most you will only need 5 micron particle filter for pc water cooling.
3. You will need to either run the pump 24/7 or setup a relay switch so it would turn on automatically when the PC turns on.
4. Taking into account the excessive filtration, the pump would be consuming more electricity to push the coolant through the filters.
5. Generally, there is no way to adjust pump speed.
5. You need more coolant to fill your loop.

Well, you still have a chance of failure even in normal heatsink-fan cooling.
It is just less risk due to less components.

As long as you follow some precautions, the risk of leak can be minimized/eliminated.
It would probably put your mind at ease if a friend could come in and help you on the setup.

I purchased an AIO system myself in the beginning before getting my hands on custom loop. Main purpose for water cooling in my case has always been noise.
I find myself to be more assured when I actually have my hands on each of the parts, instead of relying on someone else not to mess up.

If you opt for the ekwb predator 240 and want redundancy, you can just buy 2 of those and put them in series using the built in QDC connector. It is a plug-n-play system.
All the tubing would create a bit of a mess in your case, but you don't need to worry about most of the things here.
The loop will look something like this:

> radiator/pump > CPU1 > radiator/pump > CPU2 >
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