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post #11 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistersprinkles View Post

USB is the best digital transport for audio over a cable that exists right now.

^^ +1
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post #12 of 33
The most expensive part of an audio setup should be the transducer (speakers, headphones). Amplifiers and DACs that can be completely transparent cost mere dollars to make. In the digital realm, a 0 is a 0 and a 1 is a 1. A cable cannot add jitter that affects the signal. If a 0 or a 1 gets off of timing too much, it results in complete corruption of the signal, and nothing resembling an audio signal will come from the DAC.

Don't let your eyes decide how things sound.
 
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post #13 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

The most expensive part of an audio setup should be the transducer (speakers, headphones). Amplifiers and DACs that can be completely transparent cost mere dollars to make. In the digital realm, a 0 is a 0 and a 1 is a 1. A cable cannot add jitter that affects the signal. If a 0 or a 1 gets off of timing too much, it results in complete corruption of the signal, and nothing resembling an audio signal will come from the DAC.

Don't let your eyes decide how things sound.
In all fairness to the OP it should be pointed out that many others have far different opinions than those you have stated.

It's no just 1's and 0s. Digital signals are electrical in nature and, as such, are susceptible to distortion ie. what goes in isn't what comes out.

And while a cable may not add jitter itself, it certainly can cause jitter to be introduced in a system.

Here's a long read on the subject.........................
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post #14 of 33
Thread Starter 
It's not a burden, discussion is welcomed. I have been told in my electrical engineering class that digital signal cannot be distorted because any distortion would not be enough to cause a change of state, however, I could see how the timing of the clock could affect the result. For example, if a flip flop circuit is triggered by the negative edge of the clock then a small distortion or increased/decreased time period of the clock could maybe bean the signal is not changed or changes when it shouldn't. However, my understanding of this stuff is very very basic so obviously what I'm saying could be completely wrong. Hopefully it's not too wrong because I just got back from my exam on this stuff!
post #15 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksonator36 View Post

It's not a burden, discussion is welcomed. I have been told in my electrical engineering class that digital signal cannot be distorted because any distortion would not be enough to cause a change of state, however, I could see how the timing of the clock could affect the result. For example, if a flip flop circuit is triggered by the negative edge of the clock then a small distortion or increased/decreased time period of the clock could maybe bean the signal is not changed or changes when it shouldn't. However, my understanding of this stuff is very very basic so obviously what I'm saying could be completely wrong. Hopefully it's not too wrong because I just got back from my exam on this stuff!

"distortion" in the classic sense, no, but poor timing, poor fidelity, noise... yes.
post #16 of 33
What do you not understand about this? A digital signal can either be a 0 or a 1. If the timing is off so much that it changes the bit to what it's not supposed to be, the data becomes corrupted, and nothing but a hiss would emanate from the DAC. Every buffer or cache stage "re clocks" the signal. The only thing that can jitter and be measured in the output of the DAC is the clock of the DAC, itself. What is so hard to understand about this?
 
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post #17 of 33
A "digital signal" isn't either a 1 or a 0, it's a series of 1s and 0s, and that series of 1s and 0s can't be altered.

For sure a digital stream can be "distorted" to the point that 1s and 0s can no longer be resolved, but that type of gross distortion is not what the problem is. It is assumed that any DAC would avoid that.

The problem is that If 1s are changed to 0s and/or 0s are changed to 1s somewhere between the source and our ears what we hear will be different than what the source is. That type of distortion is mainly caused jitter. The other main cause of digital distortion is, as the OP points out, trigger voltage changes.

The above is moot though, since the audio signals we listen to are both analogue and digital at different times during their path from source to ears and, for sure, distortion in the analogue parts of that path are the most noticeable and the main reason why different "digital" components sound different from each other.
Edited by billbartuska - 11/1/15 at 8:34pm
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post #18 of 33
A digital signal can either be a 0 or a 1. A series of them makes data. Please don't try to argue minor semantics that are unrelated to the topic at hand.

How many times does this need to be spelled out?

IF THE TIMING OF 0s AND 1s CHANGES TO THE POINT THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER BEING TRANSMITTED AND RECEIVED PROPERLY, THE DATA BECOMES CORRUPT. AT THAT POINT YOU WILL NOT HAVE ANYTHING COMING OUT OF A DAC THAT RESEMBLES AUDIO. YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING TO A DIGITAL SIGNAL TO CHANGE THE SOUND THAT COMES OUT OF A DAC THAT DOESN'T JUST TOTALLY RENDER THE SIGNAL COMPLETELY USELESS. THE TIMING OF THE SIGNAL BEING OFF DOES NOT ALTER WHAT THE CLOCKS DO.

JITTER GETS CORRECTED AT EVERY STAGE OF BUFFERING/CACHING. THE ONLY JITTER THAT MATTERS IS THE CLOCK OF THE DAC, AND ONLY FOR RECONSTRUCTION PURPOSES. EVEN A QUARTZ CRYSTAL THAT COSTS A FEW CENTS CAN ACHIEVE LOW ENOUGH JITTER AS TO BE COMPLETELY INAUDIBLE. IF THE TIMING IS OFF ENOUGH, SEE THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH FOR WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SIGNAL.

Bit depth makes no difference beyond 16 bits. Even 20 bits is useless, as 16 bits with noise shaping can achieve 120 dB of SNR. Even reducing to 16 bits from a master without using dithering is going to be completely audible to anyone. The burden of proof is on those who make the claim that there is an audible benefit. So far no one can do it. Don't use extreme examples like 8 bits vs. 128 bits. 8 bits can be heard as being inferior and having an audible noise floor. No one debates this. 128 bits can't even be achieved electronically. 32 bits can't even be achieved electronically. 24 bits can just barely be achieved, and really only in labs.
 
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post #19 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramicio View Post

IF THE TIMING OF 0s AND 1s CHANGES TO THE POINT THAT THEY ARE NO LONGER BEING TRANSMITTED AND RECEIVED PROPERLY, THE DATA BECOMES CORRUPT..
Agreed. But what if 1s are changed to 0s and/or 0s are changed to 1s? 0001 is not the same as 0011.
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post #20 of 33
If the timing was not "off" why would there be total corruption?

And , if you haven't guessed, I'm one of "those people"
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