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[Engadget] DOJ: Apple owns your iPhone's software, so it should have a backdoor - Page 2

post #11 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

They're only doing this to protect their brand image, no other reason.

Indeed; they were one of the PRISM collaborators.
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post #12 of 46
The DOJ has exposed a very interesting point though.

Many software companies have relied very heavily on the fact that users don't technically "own" the software they use - rather they own a licence to use the software which generally comes with what would be many printed pages of dense legalese regarding under what terms and conditions a user may use that software.

As such, the point the DOJ makes is that if ultimately, Apple (or another company) owns the software and not the end user, then there is a high probability that in so assiduously securing for themselves the right to dictate the use of software, they have included in those terms and conditions legal language to the effect that they have sole right of control over, for example, the source code - and thus, the end user is not really the one whose consent is needed to access a device that runs that software.

Copyright fetishism may well have unintentionally created a very bad precedent for end-running Constitutional protections.
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post #13 of 46
Well wouldn't the fact that you can say that You own a "Copy of the software that is directly on your phone". Afterall if I purchase a game I own that game it is a Copy of the game that someone created but it's my own personal copy?


Apple may develop the software but wouldn't it just be as easy to say "you retain your own copy of our software for your own personal device vs a license agreement?
post #14 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomytom99 View Post

"threaten the trust between Apple and its customers and substantially tarnish the Apple brand"

Well, if they don't unlock it, then they would also substantially tarnish the Apple brand by not yielding to authority. I'm also sure that Apple stated somewhere in their 80-some odd page EULA that they hold the right to unlock your device for any given reason. Heck, they could even share the information without unlocking it, as they probably even mentioned that somewhere too.

I feel that Apple's just being their capitalistic selves, they just want to save all the money they can. Why spend just a couple thousand of dollars (if even) on unlocking a device, when we don't have to?

Just another reason why I don't like Apple.

So you don't like Apple for fighting for your privacy? There is no logic behind your stance here.
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post #15 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum Reality View Post

The DOJ has exposed a very interesting point though.

Many software companies have relied very heavily on the fact that users don't technically "own" the software they use - rather they own a licence to use the software which generally comes with what would be many printed pages of dense legalese regarding under what terms and conditions a user may use that software.

As such, the point the DOJ makes is that if ultimately, Apple (or another company) owns the software and not the end user, then there is a high probability that in so assiduously securing for themselves the right to dictate the use of software, they have included in those terms and conditions legal language to the effect that they have sole right of control over, for example, the source code - and thus, the end user is not really the one whose consent is needed to access a device that runs that software.

Copyright fetishism may well have unintentionally created a very bad precedent for end-running Constitutional protections.
I call for a change in law to protect end users. Protection granted to our privacy much like the privacy granted by doctor/patient or attorney/client. That would solve a lot of these legal battles over OUR personal data. Regardless of whether we use a device or software "owned" by another company.

I do like what Apple is doing here but I feel it's just smoke and mirrors for PR purposes. They put up a fight much like Google did once a upon a time then caves in and hands over all our personal data to the government.

Time to get out the tin foil hat and move to the mountains.
post #16 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

They're only doing this to protect their brand image, no other reason.

Sure but as long as it is for a good reason I don't care.
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post #17 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomytom99 View Post

"threaten the trust between Apple and its customers and substantially tarnish the Apple brand"

Well, if they don't unlock it, then they would also substantially tarnish the Apple brand by not yielding to authority. I'm also sure that Apple stated somewhere in their 80-some odd page EULA that they hold the right to unlock your device for any given reason. Heck, they could even share the information without unlocking it, as they probably even mentioned that somewhere too.

I feel that Apple's just being their capitalistic selves, they just want to save all the money they can. Why spend just a couple thousand of dollars (if even) on unlocking a device, when we don't have to?

Just another reason why I don't like Apple.

We recently had an alumni speak at my school about his experience at Microsoft, Apple, etc. One of the things he mentioned about Apple is how they will go to ANY expense to make sure things are done right. Items such as the iPhone, when you can save $0.01 on a part here and there, multiplied by the tens of millions of devices they will sell, that's a savings of $100,000+ just right there.

Yes they have money, but they just spend it in the right places. That's how you keep it. They probably spent more on the lawyers than it would cost to actually unlock it.


now to keep this post on topic, if you can get a warrant to search a house or search a car, you should probably be able to get a warrant to search a phone. both have locks, its essentially the same thing.
post #18 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMI4tth3w View Post

now to keep this post on topic, if you can get a warrant to search a house or search a car, you should probably be able to get a warrant to search a phone. both have locks, its essentially the same thing.

The difference here being the lock maker doesn't give the authorities a key. The owner either let's them in, or they call in someone to break in themselves.
post #19 of 46
Quote:
"Apple cannot reap the legal benefits of licensing its software in this manner and then later disclaim any ownership or obligation to assist law enforcement when that same software plays a critical role in thwarting execution of a search warrant." In other words, it's your software Apple, not the defendant's, unlock it.

This is actually a very valid legal point and one that has needed to be addressed a long time. We do not own our software or even music and videos, we lease them. The ownership still falls to the company that makes it. Legally this opens one hell of a loophole that can be used to smack companies around.

Closing this loophole would be good for companies and consumers as it would allow a third party software sales system to come into effect that right now has vanished. If we now own our software and thus the loophole is closed, that means we can now also sell it. This would be awesome imagine being able to sell old Steam games used.
post #20 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post

This is actually a very valid legal point and one that has needed to be addressed a long time. We do not own our software or even music and videos, we lease them. The ownership still falls to the company that makes it. Legally this opens one hell of a loophole that can be used to smack companies around.

Closing this loophole would be good for companies and consumers as it would allow a third party software sales system to come into effect that right now has vanished. If we now own our software and thus the loophole is closed, that means we can now also sell it. This would be awesome imagine being able to sell old Steam games used.

Apple doesn't own the content Emails, text messages, etc.) that is contained inside our phones. By unlocking the software, they're also giving access to content they don't own.

A judge has already ruled in a similar case, but they're trying to find ways around it.

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2015/09/federal-judge-rules-fifth-amendment-protects-cell-phone-passcodes.php
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