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[Engadget] DOJ: Apple owns your iPhone's software, so it should have a backdoor - Page 3

post #21 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyxagamemnon View Post

Well wouldn't the fact that you can say that You own a "Copy of the software that is directly on your phone". Afterall if I purchase a game I own that game it is a Copy of the game that someone created but it's my own personal copy?


Apple may develop the software but wouldn't it just be as easy to say "you retain your own copy of our software for your own personal device vs a license agreement?

Well you can say anything you like but I am sure Apple sees it differently. Sure 20 years ago you may have owned that particular copy of the software but after a number of first sale cases went against the software developers they stopped selling copies of the software and instead sell (and these days more like rent) a license to use their software instead. As a general rule, if you are signing a terms and conditions contract that outlines what you can and can't do with your purchase, you don't actually own anything.
A better analogy would be to think of it like purchasing a ticket to a sporting event. You may own the physical piece of paper that it is printed on but outside of that you own nothing. You don't even own the right to the seat (they can typically kick you out at any time if they want to, you can't transfer it to someone else without their permission, etc.). Now ask yourself this, if the police were investigating a crime at a sports event would they ask your permission to check the seat for evidence, or the stadium owner?
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post #22 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Apple doesn't own the content Emails, text messages, etc.) that is contained inside our phones. By unlocking the software, they're also giving access to content they don't own.

A judge has already ruled in a similar case, but they're trying to find ways around it.

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2015/09/federal-judge-rules-fifth-amendment-protects-cell-phone-passcodes.php

That would depend on what the license agreement you signed with Apple says. It may very well say they do own the contents; I haven't read that particular agreement so I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.
The court case you cite is not really relevant to this. In that particular case, the investigators were trying to compel the defendants to tell them their passcodes. They refused on the grounds that it would be self incriminating. The court agreed with them that they could not be compelled to reveal the passcode. The investigators were free to search the phones, they just had to figure it out on their own.
This case obviously can't be in any way a fifth amendment issue like that one because they aren't trying to compel the suspect to reveal the code, they are asking the owner of the device (who presumably was not party to the crime).
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post #23 of 46
Isn't it obvious that the defendant is not giving them their pass code, and that's why they're trying to get Apple to unlock it?

Apple couldn't possibly own the private content on your phone, that would truly be messed up.

Here's part of the response, read this 2nd point a few times.


Edited by 2010rig - 10/26/15 at 4:41pm
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post #24 of 46
Make iOS foss, close the store source and make the hardware drivers closed binaries. It's not like clones haven't been done already. Then nobody owns iOS.

FYI the OS X kernel is open, and the source is more or less the same.
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post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Well you can say anything you like but I am sure Apple sees it differently. Sure 20 years ago you may have owned that particular copy of the software but after a number of first sale cases went against the software developers they stopped selling copies of the software and instead sell (and these days more like rent) a license to use their software instead. As a general rule, if you are signing a terms and conditions contract that outlines what you can and can't do with your purchase, you don't actually own anything.
A better analogy would be to think of it like purchasing a ticket to a sporting event. You may own the physical piece of paper that it is printed on but outside of that you own nothing. You don't even own the right to the seat (they can typically kick you out at any time if they want to, you can't transfer it to someone else without their permission, etc.). Now ask yourself this, if the police were investigating a crime at a sports event would they ask your permission to check the seat for evidence, or the stadium owner?


Exepct in this case you physically own the device that the software runs on. So it's as if the game is played on your device and you own the lock and keys.

So you own the hardware but not the software therefore in order to access the software they must have your hardware which you own.

It would be like you own the stadium but not the event held their. And if someone wants to check a seat its your seat.

The real dept here is the event or software in this case.

So the police would have to unlock the stadium which you own againt your will to reach inside.

Becomes a chicken vs egg you cant get past hardware to reach software. Software runs on a physical device which you own. So what if i flash my own os?
post #26 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyxagamemnon View Post

Exepct in this case you physically own the device that the software runs on. So it's as if the game is played on your device and you own the lock and keys.

So you own the hardware but not the software therefore in order to access the software they must have your hardware which you own.

It would be like you own the stadium but not the event held their. And if someone wants to check a seat its your seat.

The real dept here is the event or software in this case.

So the police would have to unlock the stadium which you own againt your will to reach inside.

Becomes a chicken vs egg you cant get past hardware to reach software. Software runs on a physical device which you own. So what if i flash my own os? But because the defendant owns the hardware and says no. They are trying to bypass the physical and reach the software.[ /quote]
post #27 of 46
All the more reason to use FOSS wherever possible
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post #28 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

Apple doesn't own the content Emails, text messages, etc.) that is contained inside our phones. By unlocking the software, they're also giving access to content they don't own.

A judge has already ruled in a similar case, but they're trying to find ways around it.

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2015/09/federal-judge-rules-fifth-amendment-protects-cell-phone-passcodes.php

Might not have owner ship but does the owner of the emails have an expectation of privacy when the software that allows access to these files is not under his control or possession? Did Apple sign a confidentiality clause so that any information the user creates or uses cannot be looked at by Apple? Did they sign a clause that says they have any kind of limits to what they can do with the software such as unlock it?

There is a LOT of wiggle room here and I think it is worthy of discussion. Any software you use can be accessed by the company since they own it. If we as consumers say we have had enough the software developers have two choices, let us outright own the software or develop legal language to directly stop this loop hole. Otherwise we as consumers should stop buying products.

Of course you know what the outcome will be. We love to complain and moan but if we are forced to take actual action, something that might inconvience us by stopping our ability to steal music or have a game before anyone else then our convictions fall to the wayside.

We as a community are often truly pathetic. We have it within our power to effect real change with real actions and we are to cowardly or lazy to do that and yet still cry like babies because their is no change. The issues we fasce today are not the fault of the companies but rather a consumer society that lacks real convictions, just knows how to whine.
post #29 of 46
Apple's attitude is this way so hot women with slutty pictures on their phone know that they don't want to get out easily and are the same kind who spend 50 dollars on a 5 dollar cable from them will feel safe giving money to Apple for decades to come. They made billions off this sense of security in cyberspace.
    
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post #30 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaistledine View Post

Surely Apple could just reset or access the phone via there account management systems ? They must have control over the Icloud and its security .

older Iphones can be bypassed with tools created with Java not sure what version of IOS they support but it was back when the 3Gs was about .
kinda cute that the 21st century STASI cant even be bothered anymore to have stuff signed by some paper judge in some paper bureaucrat tribunal tongue.gif
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