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[Ars/TV] Windows 10 will be automatically downloaded to Windows 7 and Windows 8 machines next year - Page 4

post #31 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post


This is your post I replied to. You specifically mentioned casual users, so I gave you reasons for the casual users to not want the upgrade, and how this upgrade would concern said casual users.

Regarding my pulling statistics out of thin air - technically you are correct, I am.
I've conversed with over 20 people (to this moment) about Windows 10, just as a little social experiment of mine. All of these contacts were work-related, and only two of them knew of the issues with W10. However, I do not have this documented anywhere, so you are not bound to take my word for it.

I directed my original post towards the people saying they would switch to Linux because of this, when it won't affect them in the least, only casual users. Why should we worry about casuals and not use Windows 10 because of how this affects them? They're Microsoft's problem, a problem they're dealing with.

So i'll ask you again, how would you distribute it?

I don't see how the first sentence in your post is directed to Linux switchers. I was left with the impression that you composed your Linux segment in a completely different paragraph, again mocking casual users (or the OS, I am unsure), but anyway...

By your logic, if you're not affected by X problem, then it's not a problem at all, right?
Well, wrong. Look at what's happening when nobody but a minute part of users are actually concerned about things like this - we are left to combat and circumvent what we do not agree with on our own. And we suffer even more with other limitations that are more or less artificially imposed.

Let me talk about your post:
You can't state that the Linux switchers will not be affected because you imply that Windows 10 is the main reason for their migration to a different OS in the first place.
Second - depriving users of the freedom of choice they previously had while compromising their privacy further and masquerading it within several long and obscure ToS and EULA, and then further limiting their choice by automating parts of the installation process is not how you deal with the problem.

You should worry about casual users because they are the masses, and businesses rely on them. We are but an exclusion (and too small of a fragment to voice an opinion, alas), and when Mcirosoft decides the further wall-in their ecosystem, the clueless users will not care again. In the end, we will suffer even more. So, more or less, you should definitely worry about such business decisions.


Regarding distribution:
1. GWX (the first popup that came with an update) should have a way of being closed and/or removed.
  • The interface provides no option to close it;
  • The interface provides no way to change the install directory;
  • The Windows update that distributes it had and has no clear description: First obscure update description (Click to show)
    Code:
    
        Update for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB3035583)
    
        Download size: 664 KB - 763 KB
    
        You may need to restart your computer for this update to take effect.
    
        Update type: Recommended
    
        Install this update to resolve issues in Windows. For a complete listing of the issues that are included in this update, see the associated Microsoft Knowledge Base article for more information. After you install this item, you may have to restart your computer.
    
        More information:
        http://support.microsoft.com/kb/3035583 (link is external)
    
        Help and Support:
        http://support.microsoft.com (link is external)
    
  • Many people received the update as Recommended, and not Optional.

2. The Windows 10 setup should not be automatically downloaded, and especially not in a hidden directory in your system partition.
This is a very bad practice for reasons I described in my previous posts.

3. Additional telemetry updates were released for Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1. They should at least have a clear description and not be marked as Recommended.

4. The Windows 10 downloader should support pausing, resuming and should warn the user before initiating such big transfers of files (quite upwards of 5GB).

5. Windows 10 should warn/ask/suggest whether to use the P2P network that Microsoft is implementing for Windows Update propagation. This is another reason that concerns users with data caps.

I won't elaborate on further reasons for now.
Edited by fragamemnon - 10/30/15 at 7:52am
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post #32 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

[/SPOILER]

Of course it's your choice.. Where did i try shove my opinion down anyone's throat?

If you have your reasons for not wanting it (and there is valid reasons) then that's up to you. All i'm saying is using the topic of this thread for not switching is silly when it doesn't affect them.

As for the spying, well.. Yeah, i don't like it either, but it takes like 5 minutes to block the telemetry, and how much safer is Linux? I like the fact that with Windows there is accountability, as Microsoft owns it, therefor i can sue. biggrin.gif Who owns Linux? Who's accountable there?

I won't turn this into a Linux vs Windows thread, but as someone who's tried a few distros, imo there's no contest between the two, using Linux felt like i was punishing myself for no reason, such mundane thing's i took for granted on Windows felt like a headache, and gaming and drivers isn't even worth bringing up..

I'm not into the open source "free for everyone thing".. Give me a paid Windows competitor and i'll jump on there in a heartbeat. That's what i thought SteamOS was going to be.

Good luck suing Microsoft biggrin.gif
And never heard of Red Hat right ?

About drivers problems on Linux, tell me how it goes when trying to install nvidia drivers on Windows while having an old integrated nvidia chipset and a new nvidia discrete graphic card ...

Or tell me which magic dance you have to perform when trying to install Asus Suite on a fresh Windows 7 pro installation ( answer: run as administrator, kill a process, wait. Repeat around 30 times, reboot often, if you are lucky it will work. I'm not even joking: http://www.tomsguide.com/answers/id-1782754/asus-suite-iii-setup-start.html )

I have your same frustration when dealing with Microsoft products, unfortunately I have to maintain quite a number of Windows desktops and servers,
but with Linux I can count on an incredible amount of documentation, forums and community help.
post #33 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

I don't see how the first sentence in your post is directed to Linux switchers. I was left with the impression that you composed your Linux segment in a completely different paragraph, again mocking casual users (or the OS, I am unsure), but anyway...
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
By your logic, if you're not affected by X problem, then it's not a problem at all, right?
Well, wrong. Look at what's happening when nobody but a minute part of users are actually concerned about things like this - we are left to combat and circumvent what we do not agree with on our own. And we suffer even more with other limitations that are more or less artificially imposed.

Let me talk about your post:
You can't state that the Linux switchers will not be affected because you imply that Windows 10 is the main reason for their migration to a different OS in the first place.
Second - depriving users of the freedom of choice they previously had while compromising their privacy further and masquerading it within several long and obscure ToS and EULA, and then further limiting their choice by automating [/]parts of the installation process is not how you deal with the problem.

You should worry about casual users because they are the masses, and businesses rely on them. We are but an exclusion (and too small of a fragment to voice an opinion, alas), and when Mcirosoft decides the further wall-in their ecosystem, the clueless users will not care again. In the end, we will suffer even more. So, more or less, you should definitely worry about such business decisions.


Regarding distribution:
1. GWX (the first popup that came with an update) should have a way of being closed and/or removed.
  • The interface provides no option to close it;
  • The interface provides no way to change the install directory;
  • The Windows update that distributes it had and has no clear description: First obscure update description (Click to show)
    Code:
    
        Update for Windows 7 for x64-based Systems (KB3035583)
    
        Download size: 664 KB - 763 KB
    
        You may need to restart your computer for this update to take effect.
    
        Update type: Recommended
    
        Install this update to resolve issues in Windows. For a complete listing of the issues that are included in this update, see the associated Microsoft Knowledge Base article for more information. After you install this item, you may have to restart your computer.
    
        More information:
        http://support.microsoft.com/kb/3035583 (link is external)
    
        Help and Support:
        http://support.microsoft.com (link is external)
    
  • Many people received the update as Recommended, and not Optional.

2. The Windows 10 setup should not be automatically downloaded, and especially not in a hidden directory in your system partition.
This is a very bad practice for reasons I described in my previous posts.

3. Additional telemetry updates were released for Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1. They should at least have a clear description and not be marked as Recommended.

4. The Windows 10 downloader should support pausing, resuming and should warn the user before initiating such big transfers of files (quite upwards of 5GB).

5. Windows 10 should warn/ask/suggest whether to use the P2P network that Microsoft is implementing for Windows Update propagation. This is another reason that concerns users with data caps.

I won't elaborate on further reasons for now.


I guess i take the topic of threads to literally, people came in here stating they would switch to Linux when none of their reasons for doing so had anything to do with the topic.

"By your logic, if you're not affected by X problem, then it's not a problem at all, right?"

No, it's just not my problem.

"You can't state that the Linux switchers will not be affected because you imply that Windows 10 is the main reason for their migration to a different OS in the first place."

I didn't imply, i responded to people who directly stated they were switching because of 10.

You can white knight for the masses if you want, i just don't give a damn about them. I care about gaming, and the more people on Windows 10 and DX12 the better.

The main issues with Windows 10, "spying" etc. can all be easily overcome, it's more powerful than Windows 7 and more desktop friendly than 8.

We're just going in circles now, to each their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by facePlanted View Post

Good luck suing Microsoft biggrin.gif
And never heard of Red Hat right ?

About drivers problems on Linux, tell me how it goes when trying to install nvidia drivers on Windows while having an old integrated nvidia chipset and a new nvidia discrete graphic card ...

Or tell me which magic dance you have to perform when trying to install Asus Suite on a fresh Windows 7 pro installation ( answer: run as administrator, kill a process, wait. Repeat around 30 times, reboot often, if you are lucky it will work. I'm not even joking: http://www.tomsguide.com/answers/id-1782754/asus-suite-iii-setup-start.html )

I have your same frustration when dealing with Microsoft products, unfortunately I have to maintain quite a number of Windows desktops and servers,
but with Linux I can count on an incredible amount of documentation, forums and community help.

Look at my past posts regarding Windows.. You will never hear me say it's perfect, or even good, i just find it better, more supported and easier than Linux.

I had a problem installing a driver earlier today, but at least on Windows i can find the driver. tongue.gif
Edited by GorillaSceptre - 10/30/15 at 3:18am
post #34 of 135
If this is the case, then you should quote the posts you are responding to.
Also, you should clearly separate different statements because you can see how they chain up together and lead to confusion.

Anyway, I've already expressed that your point of view is rather selfish and you choose to ignore even after I laid out any possible problems you may experience due to this.
To put it in an example which concerns you since you care about gaming - imagine that a game you like releases with a broken profile in the WHQL driver. Shortly after, a beta driver is released which allows the game to run smooth. You will have to manually install the beta every time because upon reboot Windows 10 will force-install the older WHQL version over the beta. smile.gif


You fail to understand that the issues I describe with W10 are a lot more than just 'spying' (which is incorrectly used, but never mind).
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post #35 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

If this is the case, then you should quote the posts you are responding to.
Also, you should clearly separate different statements because you can see how they chain up together and lead to confusion.

Anyway, I've already expressed that your point of view is rather selfish and you choose to ignore even after I laid out any possible problems you may experience due to this.
To put it in an example which concerns you since you care about gaming - imagine that a game you like releases with a broken profile in the WHQL driver. Shortly after, a beta driver is released which allows the game to run smooth. You will have to manually install the beta every time because upon reboot Windows 10 will force-install the older WHQL version over the beta. smile.gif


You fail to understand that the issues I describe with W10 are a lot more than just 'spying' (which is incorrectly used, but never mind).

I'm sorry, were you talking to me? You didn't quote me and i have no common sense.. rolleyes.gif It's pretty obvious who i was responding to, sometimes it's best not to quote people.

Now you're acting as if i said Windows 10 was perfect.. I have issues with 10, I've stated as much in the past, If you look at my past posts i expressed my frustration with the way Win 10 handles drivers.. But this isn't the "everything wrong with Windows 10 thread" is it?

You still never answered how you would deliver Windows 10 to the masses.
post #36 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

I had a problem installing a driver earlier today, but at least on Windows i can find the driver. tongue.gif

Of course you can find things when you already know where to look. Familiarity is a powerful ally, but it's also the enemy of an open mind.
    
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post #37 of 135
I can't remember who was selling them but if I recall one manufacturer tried selling Linux available system to the masses and I think it was like a 90% return rate on the systems. People bought them because they was so cheap but after seeing the learning curve of the OS they returned. I'm pretty computer literate but Linux does take some time to learn the in and outs of how to get programs and set things up. That is why Windows works so well, it puts a pretty GUI on top of all the technical stuff and for the most part automates the tasks you need to carry out.
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post #38 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post

Of course you can find things when you already know where to look. Familiarity is a powerful ally, but it's also the enemy of an open mind.

It has nothing to do with familiarity. Where can i find something that hasn't been made?

I'm not sure if you and facePlanted are seriously trying to argue Windows vs Linux driver support.. You're welcome to try, but you'll lose that argument every time.

I'll just leave this here:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Linux, where a GTX 950 equals a Titan X..
post #39 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

I'll just leave this here:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Linux, where a GTX 950 equals a Titan X..

You talk about drivers that don't exist and use a review that uses NVIDIA binary drivers (which have the majority of their code shared with the Windows drivers) as evidence. Not sure if serious, but I'll let you claim a victory if it makes you feel good. smile.gif I never made the claim that you're trying to disprove anyway.

FWIW, that chart just shows a CPU bottleneck. It's hardly interesting.
Edited by randomizer - 10/30/15 at 5:53am
    
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post #40 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

[/SPOILER]

Of course it's your choice.. Where did i try shove my opinion down anyone's throat?

Just a figure of speech - You're not actually trying to "Force" anything and wasn't implying that. However if you wish to call me that it's your opinion and that's all I'm saying.
No need to sweat it, it's all good........ thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

If you have your reasons for not wanting it (and there is valid reasons) then that's up to you. All i'm saying is using the topic of this thread for not switching is silly when it doesn't affect them.

True - If it doesn't affect someone then it's a mute point, my concern would be for those that lack the knowlege to do something about it or to even know that something can be done if they wanted to. This would be an awareness issue of sorts and I can promise you MS won't say a word about it themselves, goes against why they want to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

As for the spying, well.. Yeah, i don't like it either, but it takes like 5 minutes to block the telemetry, and how much safer is Linux? I like the fact that with Windows there is accountability, as Microsoft owns it, therefor i can sue. biggrin.gif Who owns Linux? Who's accountable there?

Part of this relates to the former, if someone doesn't have the knowlege or an idea it could be done, then it becomes "What you don't know CAN hurt you". I've already stated each and every OS you can name has some form of spyware/spying built-in, if it didn't governments probrably would not allow it = Mandatory spying. We know for example Uncle Sugar mandates this as part of any OS approved for release in the US so they can snoop with impunity.
As for sueing, I hope you have a big enough wallet to take them on....
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorillaSceptre View Post

I won't turn this into a Linux vs Windows thread, but as someone who's tried a few distros, imo there's no contest between the two, using Linux felt like i was punishing myself for no reason, such mundane thing's i took for granted on Windows felt like a headache, and gaming and drivers isn't even worth bringing up..

I'm not into the open source "free for everyone thing".. Give me a paid Windows competitor and i'll jump on there in a heartbeat. That's what i thought SteamOS was going to be.

Yeah, Linux isn't exactly noob friendly and the difference between distros can be far and wide - This can be both good and bad. Trying to install drivers is an example of the bad with Linux. I too would at least try something different but as far as Win 10 goes, they can keep it.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [Ars/TV] Windows 10 will be automatically downloaded to Windows 7 and Windows 8 machines next year