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[Various] Fallout 4 Leaked Gameplay Footage and Screenshots (Seventh Update) - Page 18

post #171 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

Where to begin...

To start with, I have no issue with an accuracy mechanic. One can still have an accuracy mechanic and lasers that travel in a straight line. The end point can miss the target while still being straight from the hit location to the "barrel". Your argument makes no sense.

I can't believe I have to say this, but a laser fires differently than a firearm. There is no kick from the massless projectile. Grip and trigger squeeze are mitigated quite a bit when one has absolutely no recoil. This is seen in real life, as a novice can fire a .22 pistol more accurately than a 9mm, even without being trained in how to handle the weapon. Reality itself disagrees with you on this point.

You're making blanket statements here. We're also talking about very old weapons that have been refurbished, modified, rebuilt... whatever. We don't know what actual mechanics/physics they claim are in use in these weapons. A pulsed laser with a cooling system that released a compression discharge could give the kickback feel they put into the game... no one knows but them, since its their view of physics. They could be using traditional prisms/crystals for focusing as well... a dirty or warped lens/et al could cause these issues as well. Part of increased skill with said weapons could involve general maintenance, such as cleaning lenses. There is also possible 'recoil' when considering plasma weapons as well depending on their view of the physics and projectile release involved.... remember, physics are not true physics but how THEY program the physics to be. And... its a game... 1+1 can = fish if they so desire.

As for your example of a novice firing a certain weapon more accurately than someone trained with another... that same novice could just as easily shoot themselves in the foot with a stapler. When we talk about the general populace, hand Joe or Jane Shmoe a gun and a target, and walk away... most will not be a crackshot. Also, its a GAME... even if basics are easy to pick up, wheres the point in a natural progression system if you have an effective 50 or so skill right off the bat?

People need to be reasonable in all this... this isnt a reality simulator. Its a post-apocalyptic mind trip in a stylized alternate universe... and a video game... If you want things a certain way. Mod it that way. They have it balanced quite well i'm sure.
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post #172 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenFaux View Post

Recoil has very little to do with accuracy, most of the recoil (in "traditional" firearms) is caused by the projectile leaving the muzzle of the weapon and in most modern firearms they have mechanisms designed to delay the recoil felt by the shooter (like buffer springs or slides). By time the recoil hits you the projectile is long gone.

Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySO0EWIlOKc
Notice how the slid begins to move after the projectile leaves the muzzle and even then it absorbs a good amount of momentum before the weapon actually begins to move. At this point the projectile is likely already at it's intended destination.

In addition, Proper Handling (grip), trigger squeeze have less than nothing to do with the recoil of the weapon because both of these things occur well before the projectile leaves the muzzle and the effects of recoil are felt. However each of these things can have an absolutely devastating effect on how accurate your fire is especially on lighter weapons. You're likely to be just as inaccurate with a "massless" projectile weapon as you are a "traditional" firearm. Probably why those storm troopers couldn't hit anything.
Most semi automatic pistols made in the past 50 years have recoil springs, sure. Revolvers? Post apocalyptic pistols, sometimes hand made? Bolt or lever action rifles? Just because a relative handful of weapons have recoil compensation does not mean one can expect them on any gun. Most firearms out there aren't "modern". They're old war relics like Tokarevs or .38 Special police revolvers, not Honey Badgers or Kel-Tecs. I submit to you that less than modern firearms are a more accurate depiction of the types of weapons one is likely to find in a post apocalyptic hell hole.

We partially agree concerning accuracy being impacted by trigger pull. But in the end, that does have to do with recoil. The modern method of trigger pull is designed to help mitigate recoil just as much as it is designed for accuracy. When one no longer needs to hold a weapon in a specific manner just to compensate for recoil, one can hold a gun in a manner that improves trigger pull and therefore accuracy.

I have seen novices fire both 9mm and .22 lr for the first time. They are always more accurate with the .22 lr. The amount of powder behind the round absolutely impacts accuracy. This is also born out in less anecdotal studies. A careful reading of most Guns and Ammo type magazines will show a direct correlation between "power" and accuracy (within normal limits, a rifle is more accurate then a pistol, etc.).
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post #173 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valor958 View Post

You're making blanket statements here. We're also talking about very old weapons that have been refurbished, modified, rebuilt... whatever. We don't know what actual mechanics/physics they claim are in use in these weapons. A pulsed laser with a cooling system that released a compression discharge could give the kickback feel they put into the game... no one knows but them, since its their view of physics. They could be using traditional prisms/crystals for focusing as well... a dirty or warped lens/et al could cause these issues as well. Part of increased skill with said weapons could involve general maintenance, such as cleaning lenses. There is also possible 'recoil' when considering plasma weapons as well depending on their view of the physics and projectile release involved.... remember, physics are not true physics but how THEY program the physics to be. And... its a game... 1+1 can = fish if they so desire.

As for your example of a novice firing a certain weapon more accurately than someone trained with another... that same novice could just as easily shoot themselves in the foot with a stapler. When we talk about the general populace, hand Joe or Jane Shmoe a gun and a target, and walk away... most will not be a crackshot. Also, its a GAME... even if basics are easy to pick up, wheres the point in a natural progression system if you have an effective 50 or so skill right off the bat?

People need to be reasonable in all this... this isnt a reality simulator. Its a post-apocalyptic mind trip in a stylized alternate universe... and a video game... If you want things a certain way. Mod it that way. They have it balanced quite well i'm sure.
A compression discharge? You're stretching things way too far at that point.

It is not "their view of physics". There are 2 choices. Physics, as it exists in the real world, and science fiction. If I want science fiction, I'll go read the collected works of Larry Niven. In a video game, physics that attempts to match reality's is a hallmark of immersion. Don't believe me? Go watch a 250 fps Skyrim video, then try to tell yourself "It is fine. It is fantasy after all.".

"Part of increased skill with said weapons could involve general maintenance" only for some definition of "skill with said weapon" that does not exist in a dictionary.

I agree people need to be reasonable in all this. I simply find the lengths some posters are going to excuse basic, simple laziness in game development to be not only unreasonable but illogical.
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post #174 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

How many high capacity lasers have you worked with? Plasma trails don't follow lasers often, and when they do they are just as straight as the laser. You're just digging a deeper hole here.
One person's suspension of disbelief is another's lack of immersion.

None. I'm just saying that it doesn't really look like the laser itself is bending, just whatever the trail that's left behind is.
post #175 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by moocowman View Post

None. I'm just saying that it doesn't really look like the laser itself is bending, just whatever the trail that's left behind is.
I find that level of semantics crosses the border into sophistry.
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post #176 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

A compression discharge? You're stretching things way too far at that point.

It is not "their view of physics". There are 2 choices. Physics, as it exists in the real world, and science fiction. If I want science fiction, I'll go read the collected works of Larry Niven. In a video game, physics that attempts to match reality's is a hallmark of immersion. Don't believe me? Go watch a 250 fps Skyrim video, then try to tell yourself "It is fine. It is fantasy after all.".

"Part of increased skill with said weapons could involve general maintenance" only for some definition of "skill with said weapon" that does not exist in a dictionary.

I agree people need to be reasonable in all this. I simply find the lengths some posters are going to excuse basic, simple laziness in game development to be not only unreasonable but illogical.

You know... we ARE talking about a science fiction game here... not sure if you just shot yourself in the foot with that statement or not smile.gif

As for lazy game developers...really? Go spend a week, heck, an hour in their studios and still say that. I've done a fair bit of alpha/beta testing professionally, went to college for game design, and know a good amount of developers and professionals in the industry. There is no laziness there, just your opinion of the end result.

This whole silliness is over whether or not the 'accuracy' is being portrayed correctly. They have equations to calculate an accepted hit range and a projectile... any projectile... will abide by those equations since its all based from the same skill base system. Most of these projectiles also do not display normal bullet drop I believe, and no complains about that.

This is 100% science fiction, using reality as inspiration. They have AI based on non-integrated circuits for petes sake. If you don't like something as they designed it, it doesn't mean they're wrong... technically no ones wrong, you just don't like it. Get the game, mod it
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post #177 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I find that level of semantics crosses the border into sophistry.

That's nice?
post #178 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valor958 View Post

You know... we ARE talking about a science fiction game here... not sure if you just shot yourself in the foot with that statement or not smile.gif

As for lazy game developers...really? Go spend a week, heck, an hour in their studios and still say that. I've done a fair bit of alpha/beta testing professionally, went to college for game design, and know a good amount of developers and professionals in the industry. There is no laziness there, just your opinion of the end result.

This whole silliness is over whether or not the 'accuracy' is being portrayed correctly. They have equations to calculate an accepted hit range and a projectile... any projectile... will abide by those equations since its all based from the same skill base system. Most of these projectiles also do not display normal bullet drop I believe, and no complains about that.

This is 100% science fiction, using reality as inspiration. They have AI based on non-integrated circuits for petes sake. If you don't like something as they designed it, it doesn't mean they're wrong... technically no ones wrong, you just don't like it. Get the game, mod it
Fallout is post apocalyptic fantasy rather than actual science fiction, quite a bit more Star Wars or Mad Max than Star Trek. It is by an extraordinarily loose but common definition of science fiction science fiction, yes. By that same definition, horror shows like The Walking Dead are science fiction. Once your definition is that fast and loose, you lose the distinction the term is trying to make.

I know quite a few game developers, specifically over at ArenaNet and Riot. Game developers these days are incredibly lazy, lacking the work ethic and dedication to the craft seen as far back as the old Commander Keen/Wolfenstein days. The point isn't what they know, but rather what they choose to apply and not apply in their daily work. All the book knowledge in the world won't make a good game. It takes someone who wants to produce quality code, and at this point most game developers simply want to make money.

This whole silliness is regarding over the top design choices like lasers that don't fire straight and make shotgun noises while fired, which have a detrimental impact on immersion for those who are familiar with lasers and physics. Accuracy is a red herring.
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post #179 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

...

We partially agree concerning accuracy being impacted by trigger pull. But in the end, that does have to do with recoil. The modern method of trigger pull is designed to help mitigate recoil just as much as it is designed for accuracy. When one no longer needs to hold a weapon in a specific manner just to compensate for recoil, one can hold a gun in a manner that improves trigger pull and therefore accuracy.

Actually trigger squeeze techniques are designed to discharge the weapon without moving it, not to mitigate recoil. Improper trigger squeeze happens when a (usually inexperienced) shooter pulls the weapon to the right or left before completing the trigger squeeze. This is almost always caused by either a trigger that is too heavy for them, a weapon/grip that is the wrong size or by improper training.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I have seen novices fire both 9mm and .22 lr for the first time. They are always more accurate with the .22 lr. The amount of powder behind the round absolutely impacts accuracy. This is also born out in less anecdotal studies. A careful reading of most Guns and Ammo type magazines will show a direct correlation between "power" and accuracy (within normal limits, a rifle is more accurate then a pistol, etc.).

You're confusing range with accuracy. There are several reasons why a rifle would be more accurate than a pistol even at a similar range (say 30m) and none of them have to do with the amount of powder. The rifle has three contact points for better control, it's easier to maintain a proper sight picture and the barrel is significantly longer.

I'm going to leave you with some anecdotal evidence. My AR15 has significantly less recoil than my Glock19; the recoil on the AR15 is so low, I could single hand fire it without it being brace in my shoulder all day long. I even have a non-traditional grip I use that I wouldn't be able to use on something with more kick (Like an FN FAL). None of that matters though because I have seen hundreds of people (even "professional" soldiers) continuously screw up their trigger squeeze. If they can do it with a weapon with almost no recoil, I can guarantee they'll figure out a way to screw up a laser weapon.

Either way, we kind of went off topic. If you want to continue the discussion you can PM me.
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post #180 of 497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

Fallout is post apocalyptic fantasy rather than actual science fiction, quite a bit more Star Wars or Mad Max than Star Trek. It is by an extraordinarily loose but common definition of science fiction science fiction, yes. By that same definition, horror shows like The Walking Dead are science fiction. Once your definition is that fast and loose, you lose the distinction the term is trying to make.

I know quite a few game developers, specifically over at ArenaNet and Riot. Game developers these days are incredibly lazy, lacking the work ethic and dedication to the craft seen as far back as the old Commander Keen/Wolfenstein days. The point isn't what they know, but rather what they choose to apply and not apply in their daily work. All the book knowledge in the world won't make a good game. It takes someone who wants to produce quality code, and at this point most game developers simply want to make money.

This whole silliness is regarding over the top design choices like lasers that don't fire straight and make shotgun noises while fired, which have a detrimental impact on immersion for those who are familiar with lasers and physics. Accuracy is a red herring.

I know how you feel. Working in the medical field, it breaks my immersion hard whenever I see someone on TV or in a Movie use an instrument wrong... like on some show, a guy was breaking in to steal a kidney. He pulls out a sponge stick. And his medical kit consisted of two adson forceps, an allison forcep, and a sponge stick. How are you going to remove a kidney using only forceps? HOW rolleyes.gif

There's a certain suspension of disbelief that you have to maintain while doing anything with the fallout universe, I'm very glad I can maintain it.
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