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[Forbes] - Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Automatic Spying Cannot Be Stopped - Page 10

post #91 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

For a website full of supposed "tech" gurus you all are still acting like very low information technophiles. @PostalTwinkie and @Masked have already said it but I'll reiterate because perhaps many of you are unable or unwilling to read the facts. Information you can't stop from sending them is information they need to make sure the OS continues to be healthy with all hardware and software configurations. If you want to deny them the ability to use crash and bug reports to fix their OS I have to ask what your agenda and motive for that is. It's certainly not a productive one.


If you don't like the way MS OS is heading switch to linux and go join that cult. Leave those of us in the world of progress alone. 99.9% (yes I made it up but it's accurate) of users would never send the crash reports and telemetry that MS needs to look at problems within the OS so they've gone around asking the user to do it and have embedded the code into the OS so that it sends the telemetry itself. You say that's evil. I say that is damned smart.,


No, bug reports and crash reports should remain as they are, a Report, that you initiate and send out by the users discretion.

It is Neither my Job nor my prerogative to "Beta Test" for a mega Company like Microsoft.. If I so choose to do so, I would get involved with the Beta's and provide that feedback directly, the same way that I do with the hundreds of Games that I Beta Test.

Also you must be a nutter if you think other people are crazy for disbelieving that they would be taking data unrelated to what they "say" they want.
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post #92 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Your PC is on private property.

Private property.

The 4th Amendment covers the taking of information from your PRIVATE PROPERTY.

This isn't you visiting a website whereby your "signal" literally, leaves the 4 corners of your domicile. This is your private residence.

So, no. The only data they're taking is exactly what Postal said previously. To do otherwise, violates constitutional law and would be the biggest 4th amendment case in the history of this country.

Ask any constitutional lawyer. - Because the UNIT is on your PRIVATE PROPERTY, any harnessing of data you don't agree to, is a violation.

The below are genuine questions not to be read in a sarcastic/aggressive tone.

How about the people who don't have a "constitution" governing their lives ie. the rest of the world sans 'Murica

And the way I see it you agree to everything when you hit "accept to install". Doing a tl;dr doesn't seem like a good reason to CYA.
Edited by SpartanVXL - 11/3/15 at 7:55am
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post #93 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormX2 View Post

No, bug reports and crash reports should remain as they are, a Report, that you initiate and send out by the users discretion.

It is Neither my Job nor my prerogative to "Beta Test" for a mega Company like Microsoft.. If I so choose to do so, I would get involved with the Beta's and provide that feedback directly, the same way that I do with the hundreds of Games that I Beta Test.

Also you must be a nutter if you think other people are crazy for disbelieving that they would be taking data unrelated to what they "say" they want.

Bug and crash reports are embedded into release level software all the time. This isn't a video game Storm this is the operating system that is operating on a majority of the world's computers. It's constantly being configured and fixed for potential unseen problems. It's millions of lines of code.


I'll take you calling me a nutter the same way I take my students saying something completely unfounded, by brushing it off and considering the source.
Edited by Darkpriest667 - 11/3/15 at 7:31am
 
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post #94 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormX2 View Post

No, bug reports and crash reports should remain as they are, a Report, that you initiate and send out by the users discretion.

It is Neither my Job nor my prerogative to "Beta Test" for a mega Company like Microsoft.. If I so choose to do so, I would get involved with the Beta's and provide that feedback directly, the same way that I do with the hundreds of Games that I Beta Test.

Also you must be a nutter if you think other people are crazy for disbelieving that they would be taking data unrelated to what they "say" they want.

Performance data =/= Crash reports.

You're not beta testing anything...

What you consider a beta is not, by definition, a beta...Nor is it considered by anyone, to actually be a beta.

Crazy? No.

You don't seem to comprehend the legalese here. So, I'll repeat it.

When you use a computer on private property, you create a virtual box. That virtual box is one of the last bastions of privacy in this country.

Anything sent to or leaving that box, is deemed as being, public property.

Anything within that box, is PRIVATE property.

Notice the capitalization.

The capitalization exists because if that last bastion of privacy is breached in any way/shape/form/function, than the 4th amendment right to a lawful search and seizure of private property has now been violated by an "official" entity...And you now have the constitutional right to bring forth, what will be, the biggest constitutional lawsuit this country has ever seen.

So no, I don't think M$ wants to lose billions of dollars and bring forth, what will be, history, just because they "want" more data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanVXL View Post

These are genuine questions not to be read in a sarcastic/aggressive tone.

How about the people who don't have a "constitution" governing their lives ie. the rest of the world sans 'Murica

And the way I see it you agree to everything when you hit "accept to install". Doing a tl;dr doesn't seem like a good reason to CYA.

I wasn't being aggressive, I was providing emphasis. I'm not aggressive.

Well, they're SOL...Which, honestly, isn't our problem.

You don't agree to everything. A "agree" button cannot force you to breach your constitutional rights - They exist for a reason.
post #95 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catscratch View Post

I just wish by the time dx12 becomes the norm, Linux gaming becomes a real thing and bites MS in the you know where.

I doubt it. I've been hearing that same line for 10 years now.

People just like to complain, but the reality is, they will just upgrade and deal with it. Very few people actually take a stand on principles. If they did, EA would be out of business.
post #96 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I wasn't being aggressive, I was providing emphasis. I'm not aggressive.

Well, they're SOL...Which, honestly, isn't our problem.

You don't agree to everything. A "agree" button cannot force you to breach your constitutional rights - They exist for a reason.

I was meaning the below questions, the ones I was asking. Not you yourself smile.gif

The rest of the world being SOL isn't the best case I was hoping for...this stuff happens in the USA and ends up affecting the other people on the planet who use this.

You download "Trojan.exe" and run it, accept it's ToC and digital sign it with your signature fully accepting everything that it does. You still get protected if you turn around and feign ignorance? Seem silly that you don't face the consequences...
Edited by SpartanVXL - 11/3/15 at 7:58am
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post #97 of 234
The government will protect us!
post #98 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oubadah View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

And the first item on the list is.... yep, it's what this thread is about:

I'm not really sure that is what this thread is about. This thread is about Microsoft's refusal to provide an opt out for the last layer of diagnostic data mining (the so-called "Safety and Reliability Data").
Quote:
The researchers said that individuals today are increasingly more pressured to sign-up for "take it or leave it" privacy policies in which they have to give up tremendous amounts of data in order to be able to use the service at all.

There is little to no flexibility and control given to the users to choose to give part of the data in exchange for a portion of the service, for instance. Mobile devices have made it worse by constantly tracking our locations, as well.

Worse still is the fact that access to data is given to third-party companies that the users of the service may not even be aware of, and with which they have no prior relationship.

This seems to be referring to services that retrieve more personal types of data like Cortana, which can be disabled. "Choose to give part of the data in exchange for a portion of the service", isn't that exactly what Windows 10 is letting you do by disabling the advertising ID/"personalization data" layers? It's true, if you don't sign in and enable some personal data to be released, then you will be locked out of certain features like Cortana, but then Windows 7 never had those features in the first place, so are you losing anything?

Don't get me wrong, I've no love for Windows 10, and Microsoft should definitely provide an option to disable that last layer of data collection. Unfortunately they've dug their heels in, like they have with the forced updates, and it's helping no one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

I'm not specifically commenting (or concerned) about the privacy issue, I'm still just thinking about competition.
Microsoft will charge as much money as they can for as many things as they can, competition is necessary.
Steam OS is important in keeping the PC ecosystem healthy.

Fair enough. I just wish the competition was coming from someone other than Valve.


Does "Windows as a service", a term that they have been touting for the past few months, ring a bell? The text is speaking in general terms, of course it also applies to Windows 10, after all you can't use it unless you accept those terms. And yes, that includes telemetry, even the most basic one (see below).


As to Steam OS, there is a fundamental difference: you really don't have to use it in order to use Steam on Linux, just use another distro and install Steam on it.

Also, on Windows the Steam Software and Hardware survey is fully optional. Microsoft could take a hint from them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by VeerK View Post

Pseudo-philosophic arguments aside, is there anything I can do to stop even the smallest amount of data to MS from Windows if I don't feel like bending over for them?


Yes, there is, voice your disagreement and don't use Windows 10. Trying to play the cat and mouse game by using those utilities that claim to disable some of the phone home things violates their EULA and thus you're risking having your license revoked (and in addition the previous 7 / 8.1 license, well, you forfeit those after the first month anyway), or the changes reversed behind your back to comply again.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Catscratch View Post

So this thread needs "Do not compare web services behavior to how your OS behaves" too. mad.gif

I just wish by the time dx12 becomes the norm, Linux gaming becomes a real thing and bites MS in the you know where.

Exactly. It's astounding how people are willing to compare what a search engine or even your ISP knows about you compared to what the maker of the central piece of software in your PC can get to know about you. And apparently the notion of "don't put all your eggs in the same basket" flies by some people without much consideration.






Now let's address these posts in one reply:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

Crash data isn't PII.

Get a grip. if you're seriously concerned and against this, dig into it and find example of PII being sent down the wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Once again, as has been stated....

When you go to the lowest level of reporting, it just sends basic crash reports and other hardware/system related issues. Although it really doesn't matter, people are going to believe what they believe. I will continue to enjoy Windows 10.

LOL.

I love how everyone skipped over this.

Postal is absolutely right. thumb.gif

At this point, they can't take more data because the PC exists within the 4 corners of your private residence...It's actually a 4th amendment violation to take any other information.

What do I mean by a 4th amendment violation?

Glad you asked.

Since you own the property that the PC sits on and your signal could theoretically go stagnant while continuing to operate, it is a breach to "sieze" more data than actually necessary, even though M$ is not a legal authority, it doesn't change the fact that it is UNLAWFUL.

That being said, until that happens and it more than likely will NEVER happen because M$ isn't that stupid, I'm with Postal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

For a website full of supposed "tech" gurus you all are still acting like very low information technophiles. @PostalTwinkie and @Masked have already said it but I'll reiterate because perhaps many of you are unable or unwilling to read the facts. Information you can't stop from sending them is information they need to make sure the OS continues to be healthy with all hardware and software configurations. If you want to deny them the ability to use crash and bug reports to fix their OS I have to ask what your agenda and motive for that is. It's certainly not a productive one.


If you don't like the way MS OS is heading switch to linux and go join that cult. Leave those of us in the world of progress alone. 99.9% (yes I made it up but it's accurate) of users would never send the crash reports and telemetry that MS needs to look at problems within the OS so they've gone around asking the user to do it and have embedded the code into the OS so that it sends the telemetry itself. You say that's evil. I say that is damned smart.,



This is FALSE.

The basic level of reporting doesn't just send basic crash reports. It tells them what system you have, down to every single peripheral you ever attached to it - printers, pens, external HDDs, etc, - even borrowed ones, of course, allowing them to establish networks of people you know and they don't even say if they collect the names assigned to those and what applications you have installed.

Let me remind you again that Steam's Hardware and Software survey is optional.

And now let me address the claim that this information is vital. That is utter and complete bullcrap. You guys should know by now that that's not how economics works. They already have their own internal beta testers, then you add the enterprise partners and then you add the millions of Windows Insiders that volunteer even more data and then add all the people in forums. What do they need everybody for?

Let's get down to it: major bugs will crop up in the very reasonable sample above anyway. Those take precedence in being fixed, they always have, they always will. The minority bugs for which you can argue some usefulness to having everybody on board will inevitably be put in the pile of minority bugs and they will get a delayed fix (some are never fixed, or they hypocritically save it for the next version) just like they have before.

If you think that this isn't true, just looks at facts then:

http://www.kitguru.net/gaming/operating-systems/jon-martindale/microsoft-hasnt-fixed-windows-10s-sticky-corners-in-six-months/
Quote:
Microsoft did initially acknowledge the problem, stating on the very same day the bug was posted that it was “aware of the issue and it is currently being investigated. Stay tuned and we will update this thread when additional information becomes available.”

Since then though, there has been no update from Microsoft on what’s being done, leaving affected users frustrated.


This is what happens in real life.

Now what is happening in real life also is the fact that they need your list of installed software to match it to the suggested apps in the Start menu ads. They are taking the Start menu to distort competition, making use of a Windows feature to promote their store so that they can get the percentage cut of every sale of those apps all the while destroying the open platform design that made them what they are. With this info they can also know what company to buy next and democracies that call themselves that but are anything but (let alone those that aren't even that on paper) can discriminate you for having this or that piece of software installed. This is all precious information that does help them make a profile on you that you will be sending them.

Also, there is more, in addition to mandatory telemetry, there is another instance of hidden telemetry each time you type something in the search box in the Start menu, it pings their servers even if you have on-line search turned off. They get to know at what times exactly you were on-line and searched for something, even if it was on your personal storage.

Here is the source for that:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/even-when-told-not-to-windows-10-just-cant-stop-talking-to-microsoft/

This was the excuse given:
Quote:
We've asked Microsoft if there is any way to disable this additional communication or information about what its purpose is. We were told "As part of delivering Windows 10 as a service, updates may be delivered to provide ongoing new features to Bing search, such as new visual layouts, styles and search code.

So you need the latest updates up to the minute (can't wait for a Windows update apparently) even for local searches. Talk about inefficient use of resources, making web communications for local searches, wasting people's laptops battery life, all in the name of hidden telemetry.


But there is more (same source as above):
Quote:
Some of the traffic looks harmless but feels like it shouldn't be happening. For example, even with no Live tiles pinned to Start (and hence no obvious need to poll for new tile data), Windows 10 seems to download new tile info from MSN's network from time to time, using unencrypted HTTP to do so. While again the requests contain no identifying information, it's not clear why they're occurring at all, given that they have no corresponding tile.

Other traffic looks a little more troublesome. Windows 10 will periodically send data to a Microsoft server named ssw.live.com. This server seems to be used for OneDrive and some other Microsoft services. Windows 10 seems to transmit information to the server even when OneDrive is disabled and logins are using a local account that isn't connected to a Microsoft Account.
Quote:
And finally, some traffic seems quite impenetrable. We configured our test virtual machine to use an HTTP and HTTPS proxy (both as a user-level proxy and a system-wide proxy) so that we could more easily monitor its traffic, but Windows 10 seems to make requests to a content delivery network that bypass the proxy.

Downloading stuff using insecure means. What a great way to put a vulnerability in there waiting to be exploited. Sending data about stuff that is disabled anyway. What a great use of resources.


Microsoft is being extremely hypocritical in all of this and that doesn't do one single thing in their favour when it comes to trusting them in these times. It's actually astounding how after all the revelations from 2013 onwards they think that they can push in exactly the opposite direction (you can turn telemetry off in 7 and 8.1) as if nobody would notice or complain. It makes all this even more surreal.
Edited by tpi2007 - 11/3/15 at 8:20am
 
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post #99 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanVXL View Post

I was meaning the below questions, the ones I was asking. Not you yourself smile.gif

The rest of the world being SOL isn't the best case I was hoping for...this stuff happens in the USA and ends up affecting the other people on the planet who use this.

You download "Trojan.exe" and run it, accept it's ToC and digital sign it with your signature fully accepting everything that it does. You still get protected if you turn around and feign ignorance? Seem silly that you don't face the consequences...

It is what it is...Europe has very similar laws barring privacy...I don't know what they are so, the rest of the world is SOL.

So, now you're speculating that the existence of a trojan is cause to breach the 4th - It's not.

Trojans are illegal. They violate your 4th amendment specifically which is why, they're illegal.

What you're alluding to and/or speculating, is that M$ would simply drop a Trojan...Once again, it is an "official" clearly violating, the 4th and all information gathered wouldn't be admissible information, regardless because the S&S of said information, was warrant-less.

Once again, you cannot digitally breach your 4th amendment rights. You cannot breach your 4th amendment rights unless you EXPLICITLY give an official the right to SEARCH and/or enter your property. It cannot be done, digitally.

Take your phone for example. Why do police need warrants to search your phone? 4th Amendment. It is private property. Your phone has the same rules as your PC only, your PC has another layer of protection in being that it's on your private property.

There is no way, to digitally, give permission to breach your 4th amendment rights.
post #100 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post

This is FALSE.

So, my lawyer and I literally had this discussion this morning at Starbucks.

What you view as being "private data" may be construed otherwise but, performance data =/= personal data.

Everything you explain, is performance data and can be construed as performance data.

Taking information from my personal files, IE, my personal data, even with an "I agree" in the TOS, is not expressive permission towards a search and seizure, therefore it is a breach.

Taking personal data without the verbal and/or personal consent of an individual from their private property, is a 4th amendment violation because M$ is acting as an "official authority" and you haven't actually provided consent.
Edited by Masked - 11/3/15 at 8:27am
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