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[YF] In a new round of testing, NASA confirms yet again that the 'impossible' EMdrive thruster works - Page 3

post #21 of 47
Hate to be that guy, but I think the space travel breakthrough will not come from nasa or any other government agency. It will come from actual science. There needs to be a fundamental shift in understanding of physics, only then there can be an experiment proving it. Now it all is just sad - "we built something we don't know how it works but don't worry we'll test it thouroughly using taxpayer money".

For example Wright brothers may not have fully understand Bernoulli principle but they essentially used it and it didn't take long for science to explain how the that law makes a plane fly.
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post #22 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post

It will come from actual science.


Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment

So exactly what they are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post

There needs to be a fundamental shift in understanding of physics, only then there can be an experiment proving it.

It generally happens the other way round - first you observe the phenomena, then you investigate them, then you build theories, and eventually laws, that describe them. You can't expect someone to explain a new theory without any practical data first.

As you neatly put:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post

For example Wright brothers may not have fully understand Bernoulli principle but they essentially used it and it didn't take long for science to explain how the that law makes a plane fly.

Experiment, then explanation.
Edited by GingerJohn - 11/3/15 at 6:44pm
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post #23 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment

So exactly what they are doing.
It generally happens the other way round - first you observe the phenomena, then you investigate them, then you build theories, and eventually laws, that describe them. You can't expect someone to explain a new theory without any practical data first.

As you neatly put:
Experiment, then explanation.
There needs to be a theory that can be proven or rejected by an experiment, it's the essence of scientific method. Experimenting without any clue is like alchemy. On rare occaisions it does provide benefit but generaly invention only becomes useful and widespread with scientific understanding.

And FYI Bernoulli principle was published in 18 century so yea exactly as I said the physical theory was developed way before that explained how the plane stays in the air. Attempts to fly before that were neither successful nor scientific. These guys at Nasa are more like guys jumping from towers with wooden wings in midle ages than like Wright brothers.
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post #24 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post

There needs to be a theory that can be proven or rejected by an experiment, it's the essence of scientific method. Experimenting without any clue is like alchemy. On rare occaisions it does provide benefit but generaly invention only becomes useful and widespread with scientific understanding.

And FYI Bernoulli principle was published in 18 century so yea exactly as I said the physical theory was developed way before that explained how the plane stays in the air. Attempts to fly before that were neither successful nor scientific. These guys at Nasa are more like guys jumping from towers with wooden wings in midle ages than like Wright brothers.

You are using "theory" in the grammatical rather than the scientific sense, I think you mean hypothesis.

Hypothesis -> experiment -> theory -> further experimentation -> revised theory / law.

They have a hypothesis, they are now testing it by experiment. The results, once peer reviewed, will be used to create a theory. Further experiments could possibly lead to a law, or a revision to the theory.


And as for the jumping off the tower with wooden wings example - how did they know it wouldn't work before they tried it the first time? They had a hypothesis, and they tested it. Science doesn't require the hypothesis to be a good one.
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post #25 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

I don't see how the EmDrive defies physics. You have to put in something and get out something. They have to crank the power up so in question is where they get the power to power it if not fuel. Obviously a little hampster on a wheel isn't going to cut it. No power is infinite. I think what we're seeing is an engine so efficient it defies conventional logic not physics.

I feel the same, it's not like it's running perpetually, it requires energy to run, it will probably boil down to an effect of quantum mechanics in the vacuum.

As for energy, my thoughts were solar power, it's the most abundant energy source in space that I could think of. As long as it can deliver enough power to give the thrust they require.
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post #26 of 47
Quote:
They have to crank the power up so in question is where they get the power to power it if not fuel. Obviously a little hampster on a wheel isn't going to cut it. No power is infinite.

Sure but we have a huge nuclear fusion reactor in the middle of the solar system with 330,000x the mass of our planet that's gonna be producing a huge amount of energy for billions of years

It would be amazing to have a drive that could convert power to propulsion "just like that"
Edited by Cyro999 - 11/4/15 at 1:05am
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post #27 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

uhh, not finding out the cause means not being able to improve upon it.

Sometimes theory came after practical applications. I'm not agreeing with not finding out how it does it, but I think building a test ship to see if it actually works in real application would be cool. Maybe our models or simulations are missing some weird law of physics. If we don't build it we'll never know.
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post #28 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by awdrifter View Post

Sometimes theory came after practical applications. I'm not agreeing with not finding out how it does it, but I think building a test ship to see if it actually works in real application would be cool. Maybe our models or simulations are missing some weird law of physics. If we don't build it we'll never know.

i'm not sure why you're telling me that, i'm just pointing out why "not bothering to explaining it" isn't an option.
to put it bluntly, this thruster is one of the least efficient we've got, even less efficient than an ion drive.
Edited by epic1337 - 11/4/15 at 9:06am
post #29 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitriy View Post

These guys at NASA are more like guys jumping from towers with wooden wings in middle ages than like Wright brothers.

 

NASA Inventions we all take for granted

 

CAT Scanner

Computer Microchip - Just a tad bit important to maybe at least one person on the entire planet, or maybe more

Long Distance Communications

Solar Energy

Cordless Tools

Joystick - :D

post #30 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghoxt View Post

NASA Inventions we all take for granted

CAT Scanner
Computer Microchip - Just a tad bit important to maybe at least one person on the entire planet, or maybe more
Long Distance Communications
Solar Energy
Cordless Tools
Joystick - biggrin.gif

NASA did not invent my Joystick wink.gif
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