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[ARS] VW says 800,000 European cars have false CO2 emissions level too - Page 2  

post #11 of 167
More news relating to Volkswagen - both from today:

Quote:
(Reuters) - Volkswagen AG said it notified its dealers and regulators in the United States and Canada that it would recall certain vehicles with 1.8T and 2.0L gasoline engines in December.

The recall is due to the suspicion that the camshaft lobe might shear off, reducing engine and brake power, the company told its dealers on Tuesday after notifying the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Transport Canada.

Volkswagen told NHTSA that it would recall about 92,000 vehicles, which are some 2015 and 2016 models of Jetta, Passat, Golf and Beetle, in the United States.

A Volkswagen spokesman said another 17,000 of the vehicles would be recalled in Canada.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2015/11/04/business/04reuters-volkswagen-usa-recall.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/11/04/us/ap-us-volkswagen-recall.html



Quote:
(Reuters) - Volkswagen AG said on Wednesday it told U.S. and Canadian dealers early Wednesday to stop selling recent models equipped with 3.0 V6 TDI diesel engines.

The stop-sale order follows a notice by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency that VW group brands had installed illegal devices on some 3.0 V6 diesel models.

VW and Audi dealers were ordered to stop selling new 2015-2016 models with the 3.0 V6 TDI, including the VW Touareg and the Audi A6, A7, A8, Q5 and Q7.

VW said pre-owned models from 2013-2014 are included in stop-sale order to dealer..

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2015/11/04/business/04reuters-volkswagen-emissions-stopsale.html
Edited by tpi2007 - 11/4/15 at 2:37pm
 
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post #12 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by white owl View Post

Reduced emissions could also come from something like direct injection. Making more power with less fuel.
You are right though. A high output crate motor with a few lbs of air and a good cat behind it should be good on economy but the toxic gasses are a different story.
Please don't teach people that.
A cat has the surface area of a football field of platinum and when heated really turns alot of toxic metals and gasses into water and CO2 with little hit to BHP. Hence your tailpipe dripping.

Some restriction is desirable lest your valves start glowing.

who cares if I emit toxic gas?

And yes, I know that you're not supposed to remove all restrictions on the exhaust. That's why exhaust sytem without cats exists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

I wasn't saying that, I was simply answering someone elses question.

Now if you want to get all environmental, then maybe everyone in the environmental movement should put down their made in China iPhones and sell their VW products since they are corporate liars, frauds, and destroying the environment. biggrin.gif
And if you do, you'll get about another 5% worth of horse power. biggrin.gif

5% if you pair with ECU tune.

Swapping out parts without changing how the engine works usually doesn't net any noticeable gain (at least from my experience), but maybe you get faster turbo spool.
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post #13 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK421 View Post

who cares if I emit toxic gas?
lachen.gif

It's only the start of November, but I have a feeling that'll be the most selfish thing I'll hear this month.
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post #14 of 167
1. Sports exhaust with cats are not as cheap as decat ones. You save money by buying a unit without a cat filter.
2. Car goes faster, and maybe consume less gas?
3. Better sound (subjective)

The only problem I see is that going to inspection is a hassle, I have to put the original cat filter on and that takes around 30 mins or so.
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post #15 of 167
I'll give Florida this... they are pretty lax on this stuff. My 1988 Jeep Comanche with a 4.0L Inline 6 certainly wouldn't pass most states regulations with the mods I put on it... That said I also daily drive a car that I get near 40mpg on as well to balance it out thumb.gif
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post #16 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Technically yes. The more strict the emissions devices, the harder it is for an engine to breathe. An ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) is a huge air pump. The more restrictions you put on the exhaust with filtering, mufflers, catalytic converters, timing adjustments, etc. the harder it has to work and the lower the mileage. Some studies show that if all emission controls were removed from a modern car, they could get anywhere from 15-20% more MPG.

Hold on now. It's a bit more complex than that. A lot of emission control is achieved by ensuring that the combustion of fuel is as complete as possible. Ensuring that un- or partially- reacted fuel is not ejected through the exhaust does produce a cleaner product, but has the added benefit of increasing efficiency.

In the case of these diesel engines, the reduction of NOx gases released is achieved by injecting urea into the exhaust stream to react them into N2 and CO2. This has virtually no bearing on efficiency or performance. One could surmise that VW wanted to make sure that the refilling of an obviously unpleasant chemical would only have to be done by a maintenance technician and not the customer themselves, but that's obviously beside the point.

Another thing to point out is that turbos (mentioned earlier by someone) actually do increase efficiency, in terms of power production. But, there's the general expectation of going faster because of having one (on a gasoline engine anyway), and thus they tend to be designed to develop more power in the higher revs (as opposed to the more constant yet unimpressive boost you would need to improve fuel efficiency), which leads to more aggressive driving to get the boost, and thus kills whatever efficiency gain you got. And in order to make this gain translate into economy, you have to make the engine smaller. And people seem to have a thing for big numbers...

Plus, there's the fact that they tend to be somewhat expensive as standard equipment for consumer cars, which leads to my main point. Mass production of the more intensely engineered parts that can mitigate most of the losses incurred by restriction of airflow, through aerodynamic and fluid dynamic means, are generally too expensive to market. And (as hard as it is for dudes like you and me to believe), a large proportion of the demographic is more interested in a quiet vehicle. For some reason. So most of the trade-offs for emissions standards do result in a noticeable hit to the efficiency of the engine. But it's not really as set in stone that this is the case as one might believe. This is why super cars can still pass emissions tests. They've got enough overhead to put in the things that produce power at all legal costs.
Edited by un-midas touch - 11/4/15 at 8:03pm
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post #17 of 167
I do have to take issue with the article stating that VW cooked the books to show higher mileage than you could expect to get in real world use. I drive a 2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI with the 2.0L diesel engine and 6 speed auto transmission. That car was rated for 40mpg highway and 33 combined. I know the EPA tests are for comparative purposes only and every car I've owned has gotten better real world mileage than it is rated for, but with this car I get WAY more than that. If I'm being careful I can get around 53-55mpg on long road trips and about 45 combined driving over an entire 650 mile tank. If anything it seems the fuel efficiency may have been underrated because the car was tested in the same mode as the emissions tests which gimps the engine's output by a fair bit.

I'm very curious to see where this all goes. I tend to drive my cars until the wheels fall off so I'm not really concerned about resale value, but I am concerned about being forced to have equipment or software changed on my vehicle which affect the power output or fuel economy. A software/firmware update would likely do just that as well as possibly killing the catalytic converter or particulate filter early. Adding a urea injection system would add weight and require refilling, thus costing money and taking space somewhere. The most interesting possibility I've heard is a complete buyback by VW. It seems unlikely at this point, but if they wanted to give me to original $27,000'ish sticker price for a car a paid $12,000 for they can have it.

I'm not a huge fan of dumping clouds of toxic gases in to the air but I'm also not interested in reducing the great fuel mileage I get with this thing. I'm waiting for this to settle out and the class-action lawsuits to start.
 
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post #18 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK421 View Post

1. Sports exhaust with cats are not as cheap as decat ones. You save money by buying a unit without a cat filter.
2. Car goes faster, and maybe consume less gas?
3. Better sound (subjective)

The only problem I see is that going to inspection is a hassle, I have to put the original cat filter on and that takes around 30 mins or so.
A twin turbo race car doesn't need the restriction of a cat.
HO Cats can be fitted with negligible loss.
Cutting the cat off is always cheaper, but a full computer, intake, and exhaust was already necessary. Doesn't cost too much more to have dual cats.

That being said, I love the smell of exhaust with no cats.
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post #19 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by white owl View Post

A twin turbo race car doesn't need the restriction of a cat.
HO Cats can be fitted with negligible loss.
Cutting the cat off is always cheaper, but a full computer, intake, and exhaust was already necessary. Doesn't cost too much more to have dual cats.

That being said, I love the smell of exhaust with no cats.

Yes, it doesn't need the restriction. Because removing it provides benefits.

On a regular car, you still can enjoy the benefits. Plus you have less weight.

HO Cats are expensive, you pay more money to obtain them compared to systems without cats.


I always make sure that an ECU tune is paired with an exhaust replacement. (or vice versa)
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post #20 of 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK421 View Post

Yes, it doesn't need the restriction. Because removing it provides benefits.

On a regular car, you still can enjoy the benefits. Plus you have less weight.

HO Cats are expensive, you pay more money to obtain them compared to systems without cats.


I always make sure that an ECU tune is paired with an exhaust replacement. (or vice versa)
All true.
My stand on it is:
Daily drivers need cats.
The weekend warrior? Nah.

I can't honestly say that you're killing the planet with a car while my area burns coal for power and I'm running the A/C. tongue.gif
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