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[YAHOO & Others] AMD Zen CPUs said to meet internal expectations with no bottlenecks - Page 5

post #41 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MapRef41N93W View Post

Except you know, the actual logical reasons that are out there and known to everyone. Like the fact that it's being built on a low power node, is AMD's first FinFET product, is being designed as a scaleable architecture, etc. etc. But I can see that it's easy to be blinded from reason when you are a diehard.

A low power node doesn't actually tell you anything about what the node can do, other than telling you what it is best at doing.

Low power simply means low leakage and low voltage stable. That means you can use less energy to switch transistors and to keep signals high.

14nm LPP is superior to 32nm SOI for absolutely every metric aside from line current capacity (which goes down with lithography size). You can make up for that with physical positioning, line lengths, line voltage, power distribution, and many other things completely unrelated to the physical process (but very much related to the process libraries).

You could build a 10GHz CPU on 14nm LPP, provided you designed very carefully for it (and didn't much care about performance).

Clock rate is determined by the time it takes the longest-running stage in the core to complete everything it needs to do and have the results on its outputs ready to be read (and keeping it there long enough for the next stage to read it accurately, of course), primarily (there are some quantum physical issues that can always be a pain (such as electron tunneling)). 14nm LPP has faster switching transistors, lower leakage, and sufficient line insulation.

Being AMD's first FinFet product is a valid concern, but AMD did not create this on their own, they used Samsung and Global Foundries knowledge, libraries, and experience as well. The high level design belongs to AMD, but everything below that belongs to, and was created by, someone else.

BTW, I'm certainly no diehard, I own 3 Intel CPUs, one nVidia GPU, two AMD GPUs, and two AMD CPUs. I buy what makes sense for me when the time comes. My next major upgrade cycle is Q2 '17, with a possible move to a more energy efficient GPU in 2016 (don't need any more performance, though, I rarely keep up with the latest games - and I don't like spending lots of money on GPUs so close to a Mobo/CPU/RAM upgrade year).

I am, however, very interested in technologies and designs. I am one of the ones that argued against JF-AMD when he said Bulldozer would have higher IPC. It didn't make any sense given the optimization guide I received. I did the math and told him Bulldozer couldn't keep up with the phenom II I was running or my Core 2 Quad 9550, either, unless it had >90% throughput efficiency, which was impossible with such a stupid cache system (I mean, seriously, we did away with write-through system caches a LONG time ago for a reason!).
Edited by looncraz - 11/7/15 at 11:58am
post #42 of 82
I always have this image/thought of Jim being this ultimate silicon badass/gunslinger type guy. lol. Guess he kinda is though.
I take up with Zen being one of the most anticipated releases in '16 too. I just want it to succeed. I want something exciting and new in the desktop CPU space. I think the APU was the last(and maybe the 5960x but for different reasons), and I bought up a couple of those for HTPC's, one which is getting outdated, but still in service.
Edited by hanzy - 11/7/15 at 1:08pm
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post #43 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncraz View Post

A low power node doesn't actually tell you anything about what the node can do, other than telling you what it is best at doing.

Low power simply means low leakage and low voltage stable. That means you can use less energy to switch transistors and to keep signals high.

14nm LPP is superior to 32nm SOI for absolutely every metric aside from line current capacity (which goes down with lithography size). You can make up for that with physical positioning, line lengths, line voltage, power distribution, and many other things completely unrelated to the physical process (but very much related to the process libraries).

You could build a 10GHz CPU on 14nm LPP, provided you designed very carefully for it (and didn't much care about performance).

Clock rate is determined by the time it takes the longest-running stage in the core to complete everything it needs to do and have the results on its outputs ready to be read (and keeping it there long enough for the next stage to read it accurately, of course), primarily (there are some quantum physical issues that can always be a pain (such as electron tunneling)). 14nm LPP has faster switching transistors, lower leakage, and sufficient line insulation.

Being AMD's first FinFet product is a valid concern, but AMD did not create this on their own, they used Samsung and Global Foundries knowledge, libraries, and experience as well. The high level design belongs to AMD, but everything below that belongs to, and was created by, someone else.

BTW, I'm certainly no diehard, I own 3 Intel CPUs, one nVidia GPU, two AMD GPUs, and two AMD CPUs. I buy what makes sense for me when the time comes. My next major upgrade cycle is Q2 '17, with a possible move to a more energy efficient GPU in 2016 (don't need any more performance, though, I rarely keep up with the latest games - and I don't like spending lots of money on GPUs so close to a Mobo/CPU/RAM upgrade year).

I am, however, very interested in technologies and designs. I am one of the ones that argued against JF-AMD when he said Bulldozer would have higher IPC. It didn't make any sense given the optimization guide I received. I did the math and told him Bulldozer couldn't keep up with the phenom II I was running or my Core 2 Quad 9550, either, unless it had >90% throughput efficiency, which was impossible with such a stupid cache system (I mean, seriously, we did away with write-through system caches a LONG time ago for a reason!).

QFT

Line current capacity is no big deal, its just natural the copper interconnects are getting smaller, so they cannot carry as much current.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzy View Post

I always have this image/thought of Jim being this ultimate silicon badass/gunslinger type guy. lol. Guess he kinda is though.
I take up with Zen being one of the most anticipated releases in '16 too. I just want it to succeed. I want something exciting and new in the desktop CPU space. I think the APU was the last(and maybe the 5960x but for different reasons), and I bought up a couple of those for HTPC's, one which is getting outdated, but still in service.

It's not just Zen. All sorts of new Tech is set to release in 2016. Computers have pretty much remained the same for awhile now, and now they are evolving yet again. PCI-E SSD's, 14/16nm Gpu's after being stuck at 28nm for awhile, adoption of DDR 4, Virtual Reality , and so forth.
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post #44 of 82
Every server based system Ive ever owned worked out of the box. Get ram that is specced for the MB/CPU and it works. No toying with settings to make things work. Overall system performance is also usually higher than stock mass market parts.

Need to do video rendering/editing? Just throw all 16-32 cores (32-64 threads) at the task. The speed puts even the highest clocked LN2 bench rigs to shame.

Need more ram? Registered/ECC ram comes in sizes much larger than normal RAM usually. Up to double the density of desktop ram and you get double the ram slots on dual socket platforms.

Need SAS? Most workstation/server boards come with some form of SAS controller.

10Gig ethernet? Check.

Long term support? Check.
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post #45 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmark2 View Post

No. Sandy was the 32nm tock to Westmere's tick. Ivy bridge was die-shrunk Sandy (22nm) and was thus a tick.
This is true

I got "tick" and "tock" mixed up but at least my chronology was correct. tongue.gif
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post #46 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zealord View Post

Let's hope AMDs internal expectations are as high as my external expectations smile.gif

Yeah, I hope I can support Zen, I really am getting the itch to upgrade my 2500k.
    
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post #47 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by one-shot View Post

Hopefully this holds true and we don't run into another Bulldozer situation.

It can't end up like bulldozer. AMD knows they're done if this flops, so they're pulling all the stops with such a chip.

I will HAPPILY go back to AMD the day they have something even remotely competitive against Intel.
     
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post #48 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarathKasun View Post

Every server based system Ive ever owned worked out of the box. Get ram that is specced for the MB/CPU and it works. No toying with settings to make things work. Overall system performance is also usually higher than stock mass market parts.

Need to do video rendering/editing? Just throw all 16-32 cores (32-64 threads) at the task. The speed puts even the highest clocked LN2 bench rigs to shame.

Need more ram? Registered/ECC ram comes in sizes much larger than normal RAM usually. Up to double the density of desktop ram and you get double the ram slots on dual socket platforms.

Need SAS? Most workstation/server boards come with some form of SAS controller.

10Gig ethernet? Check.

Long term support? Check.

Then you've been lucky, frankly, or have never dealt with the cheaper/lower-end solutions. But more cores doesn't work for most people, they need higher clocks and rarely need more RAM than you can get on consumer boards.

The most popular server motherboard on NewEgg, however, still only supports 32GB, only has 2 USB 2.0 ports, three gigabit network interfaces, a graphics chip the manufacturer doesn't seem to admit exists - which is okay, since it only supports SVGA output anyway, no sound card, only 2+1 power stages, has RAM compatibility issues, has issues with one of the LAN ports causing instability issues, lacks drivers for many OSes (incl Windows Server 2012, IIRC), has limited socket spacing (though does fit the stock Intel heatsink, which is a nice change), the SuperMicro website is horrible for finding the right drivers, has a finicky RAID solution, especially finicky when using SSDs apparently, etc... and costs $174

The top consumer pick, the AsRock Z77 Extreme4, has a 32GB RAM capacity, 2x USB2.0, 4xUSB3.0 (+front panel connections for both), DVI+HDMI+SVGA, optical audio + 7.1 analog audio, gigabit LAN, 6 PCI-e slots, fits into more cases, has 8+4 power phases, has fantastic RAM compatibility, has a fantastic layout, has a better warranty, etc.. and costs $144.

Now, if I was building a mission critical computer, I'd absolutely jump to ECC RAM, which limits my motherboard choices. If I absolutely needed to scale beyond 8 cores, then I'd obviously be limited... but beyond that, consumer boards are simply better.
post #49 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imglidinhere View Post

It can't end up like bulldozer. AMD knows they're done if this flops, so they're pulling all the stops with such a chip.

I will HAPPILY go back to AMD the day they have something even remotely competitive against Intel.
I think you're more charitable than most. While I want a competitive AMD, I'm not about to buy a mediocre product to make that happen. I think the best plausible scenario is AMD offering something close in performance but significantly cheaper, with Intel forced to drop prices in response. I think it's more likely that Intel does not lower prices, but may let AMD have a small niche below the i5 price point.

Mobile products may be more interesting, with AMD finally on a similar manufacturing process. Should catch up a bit on energy efficiency.
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post #50 of 82
Straws have been reached........ yahoo doh.gif
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