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[YAHOO & Others] AMD Zen CPUs said to meet internal expectations with no bottlenecks - Page 8

post #71 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncraz View Post

It has everything to do with voltage drop transients with P-state and load transitions. Additional phases are more reliable as the load is spread to more hardware, the voltage output is more stable, and each phase can be built with cheaper components (since they handle less power).

If you want tight control, you need more phases, period. If you don't care about quality, you use fewer phases. Of course, you can make a high quality two phase VRM, and a low quality four phase VRM, but by the time you get to 8+4 DigiPower vs 2 phases of even a high quality, there's simply no comparison. Ripple, vdroop, vrise, mean time to failure, are all in favor of the consumer board.

Of course, if price is no object, and you don't care about performance, you end up buying a board with enough quality that it isn't a problem. And when CPUs are a very well defined quantity, and your using power conditioning, and high quality power supplies, and well controlled environments, it becomes much less of a concern.

I'm sorry but this information is incorrect. Voltage drop has nothing to do with the number of VRM phases. It is all about the quality of the hardware being used that make up the VRM section. The digital controllers nowadays correct voltage drop with load line calibration. Number of phases is purely about power efficiency, and component life span. ASK ANY ELECTRICAL ENGINEER.
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post #72 of 82
I really loathed my analog pwm motherboard, it always felt like something was terribly wrong with it that the cpu voltage would cycle continuously upon the cpu-z monitor.
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post #73 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebduncan View Post

I'm sorry but this information is incorrect. Voltage drop has nothing to do with the number of VRM phases. It is all about the quality of the hardware being used that make up the VRM section. The digital controllers nowadays correct voltage drop with load line calibration. Number of phases is purely about power efficiency, and component life span. ASK ANY ELECTRICAL ENGINEER.

Transient vdroop is also known as the falling edge of a ripple event, transient vrise is the rising edge of a ripple, and some of it is intentional to prevent spikes if demand suddenly drops. Fewer phases respond slower and less accurately, more phases can respond more quickly and accurately.

It's a matter of spreading error, electronic components are not as accurate as you might think - they often have a +/- 20% allowable deviance from spec. This introduces undesirable noise and ripple. When a sudden change in load occurs, voltage regulators must react to compensate. Fewer phases cannot react as well as more phases, with all else being equal, which is exactly why you will find at least 2+1 phases even on the cheapest of motherboards.

If you need a clear example of the importance of this fact, just review the documentation for Haswell's power phases where something like 320 phases are used.

Think about it, if you have two phases, you only have two filters, two capacitance banks, and two feedback logic circuits (whether PWM or analog). With fewer phases the filter stages are slower and noisier (or at least noisier), and the capacitance banks are larger. When you pull a suddenly load and drain down the stored electrons it will take longer to get the stores back up to where you want them than if there were less electrons to store. More phases means smaller capacitance banks, which refill faster, limiting ripple and undesired voltage drooping.
post #74 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncraz View Post

Transient vdroop is also known as the falling edge of a ripple event, transient vrise is the rising edge of a ripple, and some of it is intentional to prevent spikes if demand suddenly drops. Fewer phases respond slower and less accurately, more phases can respond more quickly and accurately.

It's a matter of spreading error, electronic components are not as accurate as you might think - they often have a +/- 20% allowable deviance from spec. This introduces undesirable noise and ripple. When a sudden change in load occurs, voltage regulators must react to compensate. Fewer phases cannot react as well as more phases, with all else being equal, which is exactly why you will find at least 2+1 phases even on the cheapest of motherboards.

If you need a clear example of the importance of this fact, just review the documentation for Haswell's power phases where something like 320 phases are used.

Think about it, if you have two phases, you only have two filters, two capacitance banks, and two feedback logic circuits (whether PWM or analog). With fewer phases the filter stages are slower and noisier (or at least noisier), and the capacitance banks are larger. When you pull a suddenly load and drain down the stored electrons it will take longer to get the stores back up to where you want them than if there were less electrons to store. More phases means smaller capacitance banks, which refill faster, limiting ripple and undesired voltage drooping.

Traditionally computers don't use capacitor based vrms, they use inductor based vrms. IE low voltage and high amperage. I am not sure what you are trying to say about react quicker. If anything the larger number of phases the slower it is to react to changes, due to the nature of how they work per cycle.

I am aware of the deviance from spec, but again that has nothing to due with noise and ripple. Manufacturers design their systems in accordance to the spec with ample room for deviance. If you have excessive noise or ripple, its likely due to unclean power being delivered by the power supply which cannot be filtered by the chokes.

The reason you see 2+ phases on motherboards is for the simple fact that you wouldn't want one phase to always be on. Since single phase vrm's must operate 100% of the time, their ratings are lower in terms of amps,voltage, and service life. IE you can double the service life by adding a second phase.

below is an article explaining modern computer power phases.

http://www.geeks3d.com/20100504/tutorial-graphics-cards-voltage-regulator-modules-vrm-explained/2/
Edited by ebduncan - 11/8/15 at 8:46pm
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post #75 of 82
Legitimately excited for Zen. No real expectations on my end, especially not "greatly outperforming" more modern Intel offerings, but I do hope for improved performance over my FX 8320 with modern features and solid OC potential.
post #76 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebduncan View Post

Traditionally computers don't use capacitor based vrms, they use inductor based vrms. IE low voltage and high amperage. I am not sure what you are trying to say about react quicker. If anything the larger number of phases the slower it is to react to changes, due to the nature of how they work per cycle.

I am aware of the deviance from spec, but again that has nothing to due with noise and ripple. Manufacturers design their systems in accordance to the spec with ample room for deviance. If you have excessive noise or ripple, its likely due to unclean power being delivered by the power supply which cannot be filtered by the chokes.

The reason you see 2+ phases on motherboards is for the simple fact that you wouldn't want one phase to always be on. Since single phase vrm's must operate 100% of the time, their ratings are lower in terms of amps,voltage, and service life. IE you can double the service life by adding a second phase.

below is an article explaining modern computer power phases.

http://www.geeks3d.com/20100504/tutorial-graphics-cards-voltage-regulator-modules-vrm-explained/2/

Did you even look at the diagram in the article you posted?

Notice Cout? That's a capacitor buffering the load.

The load changes and that capacitor acts as a buffer (in the diagram it actually is a two-way buffer as there is no sense line at the load). The inductor is used for filtering and the capacitor is used to smooth voltage transitions. This means a sudden load will drop the voltage, and available current, until the controller can respond and the circuit overcomes the capacitor's ESR to correct the voltage. These periods are less steep with more phases and the changes tend to be less abrupt.

Almost every motherboard will use two capacitors per stage to minimize deviations, but when building the motherboard you can easily get two capacitors that are both -15% on the same phase, which is MUCH more of a problem with fewer phases. When you have more phases, one stage being 15% behind spec is a non-issue (this allows not oversizing capacitors). You are correct, of course, that this almost exclusively is a design-time consideration, and motherboards will absolutely (hopefully) be validated before going out the door.

The reason you give for wanting more phases (duty cycling) is also very relevant, but it is not the only reason. Two phases is simply inferior to 4 or 8 phases. If that wasn't the case, many high end motherboards would just have a couple high quality phases and save the expense of more phases.
post #77 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imglidinhere View Post

It can't end up like bulldozer. AMD knows they're done if this flops, so they're pulling all the stops with such a chip.

I will HAPPILY go back to AMD the day they have something even remotely competitive against Intel.

This is my view. If it matches the 'Olde AMDe' philosophy of being cheaper with competitive performance (even with being a bit slower than Intel) I'll put down money for it.

Now if its cheaper AND quicker than Intel's offerings, THAT would be something thumb.gif
post #78 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by warr10r View Post

This is my view. If it matches the 'Olde AMDe' philosophy of being cheaper with competitive performance (even with being a bit slower than Intel) I'll put down money for it.

Now if its cheaper AND quicker than Intel's offerings, THAT would be something thumb.gif



To expect AMD to release Zen that is faster than Intel and yet cheaper is akin to believe the Sun will rise in the west soon.


Seeing their GPU how they price their Fury X against 980 Ti, I have little hope for AMD...
Edited by guttheslayer - 11/8/15 at 11:35pm
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post #79 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

To expect AMD to release Zen that is faster than Intel and yet cheaper is akin to believe the Sun will rise in the west soon.


Seeing their GPU how they price their Fury X against 980 Ti, I have little hope for AMD...
Agree, their pricing scheme seems to be quite different now. It seems to be profit margin first, market share second.

Take a look at their 300 series GPU = as expensive as Nvidia offer, may be cost slightly less but with Nvidia low driver overhead & their driver features, buying Nvidia now is no brainer.

I am going to expect their CPU is gonna price @ 90-95% of Intel for the same performance. Means for the same performance chip, u probably save 5%-10% discount only. If that is the case, I will never consider AMD at all.
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post #80 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

To expect AMD to release Zen that is faster than Intel and yet cheaper is akin to believe the Sun will rise in the west soon.


Seeing their GPU how they price their Fury X against 980 Ti, I have little hope for AMD...

Yes, this is what I fear. I just want a competitive price and performance at the moment. Being cheap and fast together would be great, but I agree its unlikely from the current AMD.
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