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[Guru3D] AMD faces Lawsuit over Core Count on Bulldozer - Page 12

post #111 of 333
Soooo, this guy is suing AMD for their design , wait what

On the other counts he may have a case but if it goes down to only cpu design he is going to hit a wall.
post #112 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by azanimefan View Post

after all if someone can win a dumb suit like the aforementioned "coffee" burn suit, then pretty much anything is possible.
Although it sounds like a ridiculous suit, the mcd coffee lawsuit had merit. Yes coffee is hot, but you would not expect it to be melt your skin off hot and there's no reason that it should be.
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post #113 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVenom View Post

Although it sounds like a ridiculous suit, the mcd coffee lawsuit had merit. Yes coffee is hot, but you would not expect it to be melt your skin off hot and there's no reason that it should be.

Coffee is made by pouring boiling water over coffee beans. If you don't know that water that was boiling only moments ago can cause third degree burns then you are the one that is uneducated. Can is the operative word here. In most cases when people spill on them selves the coffee cools quite a bit as it splashes and is whipped away very quickly and so people usually escape with either first or second degree burns only.

I know many people who would out right complain if the coffee was not served "piping hot" as that is how freshly made and poured coffee is.

Now if the coffee was specifically marketed as being ready to drink temperature then anyone burned by it would actually have a valid case.
    
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post #114 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Coffee is made by pouring boiling water over coffee beans. If you don't know that water that was boiling only moments ago can cause third degree burns then you are the one that is uneducated. Can is the operative word here. In most cases when people spill on them selves the coffee cools quite a bit as it splashes and is whipped away very quickly and so people usually escape with either first or second degree burns only.

I know many people who would out right complain if the coffee was not served "piping hot" as that is how freshly made and poured coffee is.

Now if the coffee was specifically marketed as being ready to drink temperature then anyone burned by it would actually have a valid case.

Unicorn fellow already linked an explanation. McDonalds stored their coffee a full 40 degrees higher than everyone else does.
post #115 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post


Think about this, do you think AMD sales would significantly decrease if they advertised their chips as a 4 core design with some moniker like super threading or as a 4 module chip? I think it would.

Sales can't significantly decrease when you don't have any sales.
 
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post #116 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Factually (in the most easily stated and undebatable way), it has 4 modules and 8 threads

It has eight largely independent sets of execution pipelines.

A bulldozer core is more of a CPU, on it's own, than many independent CPUs of old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svipul View Post

Bulldozer can execute 8 integer instructions simultaneously. It's an 8 core CPU. It had 8 dedicated threads. The only shared resources affect floating point instructions.

A bulldozer can execute far more than eight interger instructions simultaneously. ILP does not say anything about core count.

x86 CPUs have been able to retire more than one instruction per-cycle per-core since the original Pentium in 1993.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

If this is allowed to stand, what would prevent AMD or Intel or whoever from saying "The new xxx CPU has 128 Cores for only $199!" The problem being you could only use 1 at a time?

A false analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding Chavez View Post

IMO a core is a complete CPU which can do what a CPU normally does, which means both FPU and integer unit not just integer. BD has 4 cores plus 4 extra integer units I don't think it is a proper 8 cores. So in a way it's false advertising at least.

CPUs have existed since well before they were paired with FPUs at all.

A single BD core, FPU split, can execute the same instructions that a Nehalem core can, and if allowed to borrow the rest of the FPU from another BD core, can excute AVX instructions that my Nehalems/Westmeres cannot execute at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

A hyper thread is more of a core than what Bulldozer is.

No, it's not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Considering that AMD didn't invent the first multi-core processor, it isn't up to them to define what a core means.

Not sure what about putting two cores together allows one to redefine what a CPU is.

Regardless, Rockwell's dual-core 6502 (1980s) didn't have any FPU at all, Sun's MAJC (1990s) didn't have an instruction scheduler, and IBM's POWER 4, which was the first commercially available multi-processor chip, had cores that were more indepentent than those of most current multi-core parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Once again, performance is irrelevant.

Indeed.

A single BD module is more powerful than the quad-core PIII Xeon I used to run, in literally everything, and that was made up of four completely independent CPUs. Likewise, there are massively parallel architectures that share fewer execution resources than a BD, that are still far slower.

Anyone who uses core counts to compare the performance of highly different architectures doesn't know what they are doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenFaux View Post

Bulldozer has eight Integer units which can all execute instructions simultaneously, therefore is has eight cores. FPU is irrelevant because there are plenty of CPUs designs that don't even possess hardware FPUs. Unless you want to argue that an Intel 386 or any ARM processor before v7 aren't actually CPUs since none of them feature hardware FPUs.

A CPU could function entirely without having an FPUs at all, but it can't function without Integer Units.

Yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

Maybe the idiot should open up CPU-Z.

CPU-Z reports what it's told to report.
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post #117 of 333
Quote:
It has eight largely independent sets of execution pipelines.

Sure, but it gains no performance going from 4 threads to 8 in certain workloads.

It gets reduced performance for the second thread on a module, so if you run many programs on 8 threads you get about 6.8x performance rather than the expected 8x performance of an 8-full-core CPU - for example video encoding and rendering workloads.

On a workload that can only utilize 4, 5 or 6 threads, the "8 core" solution will outperform the "6 core" solution at the same clock speed. That's never the case with "full cores" like Phenom II or Haswell - it's because of the modular design.

Because of all of that and more, i feel it's dishonest to advertise them as 6 and 8 core CPU's because even the majority of people on OCN do not understand this scaling very well; regular consumers have no chance. 4m8t works much better than calling it "8 core".
Edited by Cyro999 - 11/7/15 at 12:50pm
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post #118 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Woah, what?! Then... Intel's first x86 CPU... wasn't even a CPU! eek.gif

No FPU, no L2 cache, no branch prediction, no OoO execution, not even a memory controller... Maybe the tech changes so rapidly that a fixed definition is impractical.

What exactly is your point? I'm not sure how a memory controller is now relevant. Afaik, a memory controller was pre-Nehalem a part of the northbridge (AMD was earlier with integrating the MC into the CPU die).

We have a decoder available which is a part of the front-end; https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/4004_arch.svg/1391px-4004_arch.svg.png

My point still stands, you don't have a CPU without a front or back-end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenFaux View Post

Although there is no set definition of a "core" (which is part of the problem) I have never seen anyone try and claim that a core "is a CPU on its own."

So if an ALU cluster is a processing core, well it's not fetching or decoding which is one of the steps of processing an instruction.

http://www.teach-ict.com/gcse_computing/ocr/212_computing_hardware/cpu/miniweb/pg3.htm

Apparently people are calling a part of the back-end a core, I won't be more wrong by calling the decoder or fetching unit a core as well.

What wiki has to say;

A multi-core processor is a single computing component with two or more independent actual processing units (called "cores"), which are the units that read and execute program instructions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-core_processor

So can the ALU cluster work independently? Nope.
Does the ALU cluster read an instruction? Nope, front-ends job.
Can the module work independently? Yes, because it's the core.

Also if we have to believe AMD's definitions, a bulldozer module with CMT disabled (4 "cores" only enabled on a 8350) has hyperthreading;



The first multicore processor we've seen were just 2 CPU's glued together with stuff like L3 cache being left out and shared across them, it has been like that for the past 10 years orso. There's no reason why the marketing clowns at AMD should redefine what a core is just for the sake of boosting their sales.
post #119 of 333

I checked everything.Here:

CPU AMD Phenom II X4 980 AMD Phenom II X6 1100T AMD FX-4320 AMD FX-6350 AMD FX-8350 Intel Core i7-4790K Intel Core i7-3970X Intel Core i7-5960X
Cinebench R15 (Single-Core) 1.12 1.12 1.08 0.86 1.11 1.97 1.61 1.89
Cinebench R11.5, 64bit (Multi-Core) 4.41 5.81 3.55 4.99 6.94 9.67 11.62 13.18
Ratio ( Multi thread / Single Thread) 3.937 5.1875 3.287 5.802 6.252 4.908 7.217 6.973

 

You can see AMD FX-8350 acts as an Octa Core with poor IPC.


Edited by Xuper - 11/7/15 at 1:19pm
post #120 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuper View Post

I checked everything.Here:








CPU AMD Phenom II X4 980 AMD Phenom II X6 1100T AMD FX-4320 AMD FX-6350 AMD FX-8350 Intel Core i7-4790K Intel Core i7-3970X Intel Core i7-5960X
Cinebench R15 (Single-Core) 1.12 1.12 1.08 0.86 1.11 1.97 1.61 1.89
Cinebench R11.5, 64bit (Multi-Core) 4.41 5.81 3.55 4.99 6.94 9.67 11.62 13.18
Ratio ( Multi thread / Single Thread) 3.937 5.1875 3.287 5.802 6.252 4.908 7.217 6.973




You can see AMD FX-8350 acts as 8 Core with poor IPC.
... with double the cache size.
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