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[Guru3D] AMD faces Lawsuit over Core Count on Bulldozer - Page 7

post #61 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Robot View Post

Yeah, the Crapdragon is even worse than Bulldozer, because it crippled a lot of good phones, really limiting your choice.

It is amazing how damn slow my wife's Galaxy Note Mega FabulousPhablet is compared to my iPhone 5s.

OT:

It is amazing how much hair splitting over the definition of a core is going to take place over this.
    
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post #62 of 333
I don't think this case has much merit but the basis for this lawsuit is the same as the one once made against the gtx 970 and 3.5gb of memory.

The gtx 970 performs where it should in 95% of cases. It dips down a bit more with 4k and 1440P, but this is the minority. However, it does physically have 4gb of memory,it's just that the last 0.5gb however doesn't perform at the speeds it should and can slow down games when accessed.

Occasionally, bulldozer performs like an 8 core processor, but in most cases it does not. The more damning thing for AMD is they emphasized 8 true cores were already present as the marketing slide decks shows than Nvidia claimed for the 4gb. Because of this, it easier to prove AMD did this deception wilfully.

It's basically nvidia 4 gb of ram, but only 3.5 are usable vs AMD 8 cores, but most of the time, it performs like an 4 core. Both are dishonest but for AMD it's alot more excusable because they are broke and need every marketing trick in the book to sell their CPU's. The 970 would have sold great, even with the 3.5gb memory sticker.
post #63 of 333

People are absolutely and utterly moronic.

 

This is blatant proof of it.

 

I seriously hope he loses the suit and gets counter-sued by AMD for image damages and they get a good chunk out of the fool.

   
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post #64 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenFaux View Post

This is by far the silliest thing I've seen this morning, I'm guessing most of these people don't even know what CPU stands for.
I can say with certainty that some people think the CPU is the entire computer tower. They think it is an abreviation for ComPUter instead of Central Processing Unit.
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post #65 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

I don't think this case has much merit but the basis for this lawsuit is the same as the one once made against the gtx 970 and 3.5gb of memory.

The gtx 970 performs where it should in 95% of cases. It dips down a bit more with 4k and 1440P, but this is the minority. However, it does physically have 4gb of memory,it's just that the last 0.5gb however doesn't perform at the speeds it should and can slow down games when accessed.

Occasionally, bulldozer performs like an 8 core processor, but in most cases it does not. The more damning thing for AMD is they emphasized 8 true cores were already present as the marketing slide decks shows than Nvidia claimed for the 4gb. Because of this, it easier to prove AMD did this deception wilfully.

It's basically nvidia 4 gb of ram, but only 3.5 are usable vs AMD 8 cores, but most of the time, it performs like an 4 core. Both are dishonest but for AMD it's alot more excusable because they are broke and need every marketing trick in the book to sell their CPU's. The 970 would have sold great, even with the 3.5gb memory sticker.

Except the reason they do not perform like 8 cores is not because of the cores, but the decoder's inability to feed them. A bottleneck.

Additionally, you do not have any reference maker for what half a module should perform like as there is no non-CMT version of the Bulldozer arch. You have zero ground to say that the cores do not perform like the cores should. The one and only basis you have for this is to say that when calculating 256-bit floating point calculations, that the CPU performs more like a quad core, but all AMD has to say is that the ability to merge the two FPU units is a feature, and that each core gets one 256-bit INT and one 128-bit FPU, which is not unusual.

EDIT: not you specifically, in general.
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post #66 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

I don't think this case has much merit but the basis for this lawsuit is the same as the one once made against the gtx 970 and 3.5gb of memory.

The gtx 970 performs where it should in 95% of cases. It dips down a bit more with 4k and 1440P, but this is the minority. However, it does physically have 4gb of memory,it's just that the last 0.5gb however doesn't perform at the speeds it should and can slow down games when accessed.

Occasionally, bulldozer performs like an 8 core processor, but in most cases it does not. The more damning thing for AMD is they emphasized 8 true cores were already present as the marketing slide decks shows than Nvidia claimed for the 4gb. Because of this, it easier to prove AMD did this deception wilfully.

It's basically nvidia 4 gb of ram, but only 3.5 are usable vs AMD 8 cores, but most of the time, it performs like an 4 core. Both are dishonest but for AMD it's alot more excusable because they are broke and need every marketing trick in the book to sell their CPU's. The 970 would have sold great, even with the 3.5gb memory sticker.

You're right, it is like Nvidia and the 3.5GB suit. But everything else is wrong.

This has nothing to do with performance. If it did, you could sue Intel for claiming their Atoms are quad-core even though they perform nowhere near the full-power architecture, or you could sue AMD because their CPUs are slower than Intel's. (I mean, you still can, but you won't get anywhere.)

Their marketing slides never said "true" core. What even is a true core? Similarly, Nvidia never claimed a "true" 256-bit bus and "true" 4GB. Even if they did, apparently it's okay to market stuff that way - Titan Zs were advertised with 768-bit buses and 12GB of VRAM, and 295X2s are marketed as 1024-bit GPUs with 8GB VRAM. Plus it's not like Nvidia hasn't had asymmetric memory before. I have a 650Ti Boost with 768MiB @ 192-bit and 256MiB @ 64-bit for example. It's also not the first time a "fake" multicore CPU has been sold. See AMD's Opteron 6100 series, or Intel's Pentium D, or Intel's Core2Quad.

No, being dishonest and misleading your consumers is never justifiable. But here? Where was the deception in the first place? There was none. If you bought an 8150 thinking you were buying eight Westmere cores, you'd be sadly mistaken and have nobody to blame but yourself for making assumptions. If we're going to classify core count based on performance, then, well, let's use a 2500K as the baseline quad-core. A 2600K, adding only Hyperthreading, performs around 25% better in multicore and is therefore a penta-core in this new definition. Similarly, a 6600K is also a penta-core thanks to Skylake's improvements, and a 5960X is an undeca- or dodeca-core. Sounds ridiculous? That's because it is, especially when you realize you'd have to call something like a Pentium 4 a half-core CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Additionally, you do not have any reference maker for what half a module should perform like as there is no non-CMT version of the Bulldozer arch. You have zero ground to say that the cores do not perform like the cores should. The one and only basis you have for this is to say that when calculating 256-bit floating point calculations, that the CPU performs more like a quad core, but all AMD has to say is that the ability to merge the two FPU units is a feature, and that each core gets one 256-bit INT and one 128-bit FPU, which is not unusual.

That's not entirely true. There are some benchmarks floating around comparing an 8350 to a Jaguar chip - a 5350 IIRC - clock-for-clock. There were two 8350 configurations used, one emulating an FX-4300 with two modules completely disabled, and one with a single core per module disabled. The 5350 was something like 5-10% faster than the 2M/4C configuration, but also 5-10% slower than the 4M/4C version. That said there's no reason for AMD to release a module-less version of this core. The point of CMT was to cram more cores into less space and, well, they did succeed there.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 11/6/15 at 12:02pm
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post #67 of 333
The only thing that kinda comes close to this is the nVidia memory issue where one of their graphics cards had a thing where 1/8 of the memory was at a slower frequency. You can call them out on that because that is a factual problem does 100% of the memory work at that speed, yes or no. Then you look at this situation where it is now a philosophical argument of the definition of a core. There is only opinions really, so unless they listed it wrong somewhere, I dont see them at fault (and if it was wrong in 1 maybe 2 places, that shouldn't be enough to rule against them).

I am not familar enough with the architectures and how all this stuff works, but do we need to have a set definition for what a core means, or is that a large architectural variance that really cant be set. I would hate for AMD or Intel to change what works for them to something else because 8 core sounds much better than 4Core + 4 integer units or whatever.
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post #68 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

You're right, it is like Nvidia and the 3.5GB suit. But everything else is wrong.

This has nothing to do with performance. If it did, you could sue Intel for claiming their Atoms are quad-core even though they perform nowhere near the full-power architecture, or you could sue AMD because their CPUs are slower than Intel's. (I mean, you still can, but you won't get anywhere.)

Their marketing slides never said "true" core. What even is a true core? Similarly, Nvidia never claimed a "true" 256-bit bus and "true" 4GB. Even if they did, apparently it's okay to market stuff that way - Titan Zs were advertised with 768-bit buses and 12GB of VRAM, and 295X2s are marketed as 1024-bit GPUs with 8GB VRAM. Plus it's not like Nvidia hasn't had asymmetric memory before. I have a 650Ti Boost with 768MiB @ 192-bit and 256MiB @ 64-bit for example. It's also not the first time a "fake" multicore CPU has been sold. See AMD's Opteron 6100 series, or Intel's Pentium D, or Intel's Core2Quad.

No, being dishonest and misleading your consumers is never justifiable. But here? Where was the deception in the first place? There was none. If you bought an 8150 thinking you were buying eight Westmere cores, you'd be sadly mistaken and have nobody to blame but yourself for making assumptions. If we're going to classify core count based on performance, then, well, let's use a 2500K as the baseline quad-core. A 2600K, adding only Hyperthreading, performs around 25% better in multicore and is therefore a penta-core in this new definition. Similarly, a 6600K is also a penta-core thanks to Skylake's improvements, and a 5960X is an undeca- or dodeca-core. Sounds ridiculous? That's because it is, especially when you realize you'd have to call something like a Pentium 4 a half-core CPU.

But AMD put heavy emphasis on it being a true 8 core. i.e real core campaign.

AMD definitely got a bit more sales preying on the ignorance with the 8 core campaign than Nvidia got advertising the card as a 4gb card vs 3.5gb card. The 0.5gb didn't matter to most people as they still got what they paid for as far as performance goes.

Think about this, do you think AMD sales would significantly decrease if they advertised their chips as a 4 core design with some moniker like super threading or as a 4 module chip? I think it would. Do you think the gtx 970 sales would have been effected much if they advertised it as a 3.5gb card considering its value proposition at the time(performing at a 290x(550-499) level for 330 dollars)?

The gtx 970's performance sold for itself. That 0.5gb hardly matters as even with that knowledge available now, they sell well still and havent really had a price drop since release.

The only thing the fx8150 had going for it was that it had supposedly more cores than a 2600k. It other characteristics were worse, it was slower, was as expensive as a 2600k processor upon release, didn't overclock well and drank up more power like a pentium 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

The only thing that kinda comes close to this is the nVidia memory issue where one of their graphics cards had a thing where 1/8 of the memory was at a slower frequency. You can call them out on that because that is a factual problem does 100% of the memory work at that speed, yes or no. Then you look at this situation where it is now a philosophical argument of the definition of a core. There is only opinions really, so unless they listed it wrong somewhere, I dont see them at fault (and if it was wrong in 1 maybe 2 places, that shouldn't be enough to rule against them).

I am not familar enough with the architectures and how all this stuff works, but do we need to have a set definition for what a core means, or is that a large architectural variance that really cant be set. I would hate for AMD or Intel to change what works for them to something else because 8 core sounds much better than 4Core + 4 integer units or whatever.

All 4gb of memory was never advertised full speed, much like all 8 cores in AMD work like quadcores most of the time. Hence the similarities.

The difference is, that 0.5gb barely only impacted a small amount of users. On the other hand, the fx8150 performs more like a quadcore 90 percent of the time and like an 8 core in a couple instances which all 8 cores can be activated and used.

And this is what I think what people on here expect of cores nowadays than some artificial way like hyperthreading.

That being a core should be capable of doing work in a great variety of tasks. If those cores don't activate in most scenarios(not due to some power saving measure like phones), then they shouldn't be advertised as such.
Edited by tajoh111 - 11/6/15 at 12:30pm
post #69 of 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

But AMD put heavy emphasis on it being a true 8 core. i.e real core campaign.

AMD definitely got a bit more sales preying on the ignorance with the 8 core campaign than Nvidia got advertising the card as a 4gb card vs 3.5gb card. The 0.5gb didn't matter to most people as they still got what they paid for as far as performance goes.

Think about this, do you think AMD sales would significantly decrease if they advertised their chips as a 4 core design with some moniker like super threading or as a 4 module chip? I think it would. Do you think the gtx 970 sales would have been effected much if they advertised it as a 3.5gb card considering its value proposition at the time(performing at a 290x(550-499) level for 330 dollars)?

The gtx 970's performance sold for itself. That 0.5gb hardly matters as even with that knowledge available now, they sell well still and havent really had a price drop since release.

The only thing the fx8150 had going for it was that it had supposedly more cores than a 2600k. It other characteristics were worse, it was slower, was as expensive as a 2600k processor upon release, didn't overclock well and drank up more power like a pentium 4.

who's definition of core are you using?

afaik amd defines it's cores not intel.
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AMD Ryzen 1700x ASUS Prime X370 Pro Gigabyte GeForce GTX 980 Gigabyte GeForce GTX 980 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
16gb's Team Select 3200Mhz RGB  Crucial M500 SSD 240gb Corsair H55 Windows 7 Ultimate 
MonitorMonitorPowerCase
ASUS PB287Q 4K Monitor HTC Vive Coolermaster Silent Pro M 1000W Rosewill Blackhawk Ultra 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Razer Deathadder 2013 Steelseries Qck Mass Super Thick Cloth Mouse Pad Genius SW-G2.1 1250 4PC Gaming Speakers 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Core i7 3770k Asus P8Z68 Deluxe Galaxy Geforce GTX 780 Galaxy Geforce GTX 780 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
16 Gb's G.Skill DDR3 1866 Crucial M500 SSD 240Gb Coolit ECO C240 Windows 7 Ultimate 
MonitorPowerCase
Benq G2420HD Coolermaster Silent Pro 1000 Watt Deepcool Kendomen 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Core i3 2120 Supermicro X9SCM-F 4 Gb Kingston 1600mhz DDR3 ECC 12 Segate 2tb drives (RAID 6) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSPower
ADATA SP600 SSD 24 Toshiba DT01ACA200 drives (2 RAID 6's) Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit. OCZ ZT750 Supermicro PWS-665-PQ 
CaseOtherOtherOther
Norco 4020 and Norco 4224 LSI 9260-4i Raid Card Intel RES2SV240 20 port Expander. HP SAS 24 por... Voltaire 410Ex Hca Infiniband HBA 
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post #70 of 333
Considering that AMD didn't invent the first multi-core processor, it isn't up to them to define what a core means.
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