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[Gamespot] Gabe Newell: Valve's Steam Machines Outperform Consoles at Same Price Point - Page 15

post #141 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

I know you weren't quoting me here directly, but I may as well throw it out there that I have a nearly a decade of professional software development experience as well as graphics engine and API programming and bit-level optimization.

I feel that most of what you're saying is too subjective and generic to make your argument.

Of course it's subjective.

A game like Fallout 4 isn't going to undergo the same porting that a game like Rocket-League does.

Not only does the industry scale in that regard but, so does the effort that goes into optimization; you know that. It's always been a bell-curve.

The reality is that if you keep the hardware between X and Y, you eliminate all variables from Y to Z and all variables from U to X. - It really is that simple.

The Steam Machine allows for the same level of optimization as the PS4 and XBOne do while being on an "easy to use" platform...That makes optimization, when aimed at the Steam Machine, incredibly simple because it has, in it's STOCK FORM, the same limitations as either console.

I really don't want to continue on the semantics of porting and optimization because, it's very clear that the vast majority of people in this thread don't realize that once a product is ported, it undergoes optimization...So, yeah.
post #142 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

The Steam Machine allows for the same level of optimization as the PS4 and XBOne do while being on an "easy to use" platform...That makes optimization, when aimed at the Steam Machine, incredibly simple because it has, in it's STOCK FORM, the same limitations as either console.

That, I certainly agree with (assuming that the limited hardware config is true). Just to clarify, my argument was that I don't think this will actually matter to any devs. I don't think they're going to treat these steam machines any differently from any other PC. tongue.gif
Edited by Tempest2000 - 11/10/15 at 10:16am
post #143 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Optimization, right now, for AAA games, takes a couple thousand man hours.

Most of you, the public, are unaware of that fact...That is/was until Batman.

The studio had 12 guys when, it should've had 50 or more just working on PC optimization...It didn't...Thus, Batman.

Optimization is a very grueling process because of exceptions. Exceptions are mostly new hardware.

AAA products shoot mid-high range, right? Well, the super high end, like the 980's, or the 290s, 390s, etc - Take additional coding; they always have. I can't get into specifics because I don't code but, I've worked with studios that have done the optimization and...Yeah, it's often difficult.

You have to account for flops, processing...There are a lot of variables.

By having a limited hardware list, you no longer have those variables. You have a set list and you're off to the races.

Sure, the end user could buy the stock version and throw some micro card in there but, then they are causing a variable on their own, above the collective.

As long as the collective stays the same, it stays within the general window of what's considered "already" optimized.

So, say I'm making a game based on the PS4 hardware windows...XBOne has almost the same hardware...So does the Steam Machine...Simple port over is now, incredibly simple because I don't have to code for an additional 15000 variables...I simply have to leave it in this general window. Now, I can launch my game in October instead of pushing it to December, just to optimize it for the PC market.

Trine 3 also had this issue...Which, they spoke about numerous times...They had optimization issues with high end hardware too because they didn't have time to optimize before launch.
I have yet to contradict myself.

It's very obvious the vast majority of you don't comprehend game development and stage 2 optimization...

Porting a game does not complete the process...Post optimization that process is completed.

I'm not contradicting myself or wrong, due to your ignorance...It's simply your ignorance, of the process, that IS the problem.

I'm not convinced. On Wikipedia it says "Unlike other gaming consoles, the Steam Machine does not have a specific configuration of hardware, but a minimum specification of computer hardware components that would be needed to support the SteamOS operating system and games developed for it." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_%28hardware_platform%29#Hardware_units). That's essentially the same thing as with a Windows computer. Sure you can buy a prebuilt/build your own computer but it will require a minimum amount of RAM and disk space to install the OS on (just like SteamOS) and games will also have minimum requirements as they always have. I think the only reason they write that is for any games to be considered SteamOS certified or verified (or whatever term they use) they need to support X Y Z hardware at a minimum. That way if someone was at a store and had a Steam Machine, they could browse the games for it and know that it would be playable.
post #144 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdarkreap3rxx View Post

I'm not convinced. On Wikipedia it says "Unlike other gaming consoles, the Steam Machine does not have a specific configuration of hardware, but a minimum specification of computer hardware components that would be needed to support the SteamOS operating system and games developed for it." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_Machine_%28hardware_platform%29#Hardware_units). That's essentially the same thing as with a Windows computer. Sure you can buy a prebuilt/build your own computer but it will require a minimum amount of RAM and disk space to install the OS on (just like SteamOS) and games will also have minimum requirements as they always have. I think the only reason they write that is for any games to be considered SteamOS certified or verified (or whatever term they use) they need to support X Y Z hardware at a minimum. That way if someone was at a store and had a Steam Machine, they could browse the games for it and know that it would be playable.

Just to clarify, there's a very large difference (IE Bellcurve) between a AAA developer and another developer.

Your AAA developers aren't going to aim for the Steam Machine.

The developer that's making a game for PS4/XBOne and doesn't have the resources to push to PC because of optimization now, basically just ports it and does minor optimization work and it's on the PC...

This allows for MORE content to be pushed to the PC environment simply because it costs much less to optimize it.

I haven't seen the contracts, personally but, I know that Alienware had a very limited list of parts to make their "Steam Machines" with...So, maybe they changed it? Not sure...But, there are Min/Max requirements and set parts lists...TMK.
post #145 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Of course it's subjective.

A game like Fallout 4 isn't going to undergo the same porting that a game like Rocket-League does.

Not only does the industry scale in that regard but, so does the effort that goes into optimization; you know that. It's always been a bell-curve.

The reality is that if you keep the hardware between X and Y, you eliminate all variables from Y to Z and all variables from U to X. - It really is that simple.

The Steam Machine allows for the same level of optimization as the PS4 and XBOne do while being on an "easy to use" platform...That makes optimization, when aimed at the Steam Machine, incredibly simple because it has, in it's STOCK FORM, the same limitations as either console.

I really don't want to continue on the semantics of porting and optimization because, it's very clear that the vast majority of people in this thread don't realize that once a product is ported, it undergoes optimization...So, yeah.

I'm not 100% certain how consoles operate these days as I haven't touched them in about 4 years but IIRC, the Xbox and Playstation also have resolution constraints (1280x720, maybe 1920x1080?). There is no need for multiple texture qualities and additional settings (view distances, grass detail, whatever) that make up Low-Medium-High-Very High-Ultra like for computer games. That's sort of besides the point as most games for those platforms are released for Windows as well so it's not really porting Xbox/Playstation -> Linux but Windows -> Linux.
post #146 of 247
I don't see it.

I have a vastly superior PC to my consoles, but...I get the occasional stutters due to the unfavorable software support.

I'm also much more sensitive to frame rate drops/inconsistencies on my PC since I paid a lot more for it.

Meanwhile, Halo 5 has been one of the most polished experiences thus far, a solid 60fps, and compromises I can live with considering the cost.

These steam machines won't compete after a few years once software support drops....meanwhile developers will be employing every trick in the book to make the most out of the consoles.

Same story as usual.
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post #147 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post



Replying to all 3 of you at once.

Steam machines have a set list of parts they must have in order to be called Steam Machines. It's one of the provisions of the contract. /Dropmic.

So it's actually irrelevant how many parts variations there are now in existing "steam machines"...They're within the contract.

It's still SIGNIFICANTLY less than what exists on the open market...So, once again, set parts lists.

Holy crap your delusions keep getting worse and worse.

What minimum spec is there for Steam Machines? There is an Athlon 840 with a 250X Steam Machine. There is an i7-4770R with Iris Pro graphics. There is an i7 4770 with a GTX 960. Steam Machines span 2 different CPU manufacturers and 3 different GPU manufacturers, if that isn't the very definition of non-standardized hardware, I don't know what is. It doesn't matter if there is a minimum performance requirement, there should be at minimum a single vendor requirement for each component, if not single generation from single vendor requirement. Or ideally, only one hardware configuration, guaranteed not to change for a minimum of 4 years.
Edited by Tsumi - 11/10/15 at 9:58am
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post #148 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

I know you weren't quoting me here directly, but I may as well throw it out there that I have a nearly a decade of professional software development experience as well as graphics engine and API programming and bit-level optimization.

Granted, you and I were kind of arguing two different things (so I'll leave it at that) but I feel that most of what you're saying is too subjective and generic to make your argument.

There you go @Masked, someone who does know exactly what they are talking about just said your argument is weak! thumb.gif BTW I never claimed to know anything about programming or porting video games & that had nothing to do with my arugument. The bottom line is you are claiming that the Steam Machines are made out of a specified set/sets of components which is not true. The Steam Machines components run the gambit from AMD to Nvidia to Intel to probably even some unheard of manufacturers. The fact remains that the only major differences between a Steam Machine & any other PC are the OS & form factor. Just because you are trying to con-volute your argument by talking about programming & porting does not change that fact... wink.gif
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post #149 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob27shred View Post

There you go @Masked, someone who does know exactly what they are talking about just said your argument is weak! thumb.gif BTW I never claimed to know anything about programming or porting video games & that had nothing to do with my arugument. The bottom line is you are claiming that the Steam Machines are made out of a specified set/sets of components which is not true. The Steam Machines components run the gambit from AMD to Nvidia to Intel to probably even some unheard of manufacturers. The fact remains that the only major differences between a Steam Machine & any other PC are the OS & form factor. Just because you are trying to con-volute your argument by talking about programming & porting does not change that fact... wink.gif

That is actually not what I said.

I said that Steam Machines are designed within a specific window.

Alienware had a parts list...As did everyone else...

You as the end user are free to upgrade if you choose to but, coming from the manufacturer, these PC's have specific component lists...Which, is true.

I never once said, they were limited by AMD/Nvidia/Intel/AMD/etc...I said there were predefined specs and per my sources, AW themselves, there are.

thumb.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Holy crap your delusions keep getting worse and worse.

What minimum spec is there for Steam Machines? There is an Athlon 840 with a 250X Steam Machine. There is an i7-4770R with Iris Pro graphics. There is an i7 4770 with a GTX 960. Steam Machines span 2 different CPU manufacturers and 3 different GPU manufacturers, if that isn't the very definition of non-standardized hardware, I don't know what is. It doesn't matter if there is a minimum performance requirement, there should be at minimum a single vendor requirement for each component, if not single generation from single vendor requirement. Or ideally, only one hardware configuration, guaranteed not to change for a minimum of 4 years.

Is it just easier being ignorant to reality or, do you choose just not to educate yourself on the real world and how things actually function?

I'm not sure but, it's one or the other.
post #150 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

That is actually not what I said.

I said that Steam Machines are designed within a specific window.

Alienware had a parts list...As did everyone else...

You as the end user are free to upgrade if you choose to but, coming from the manufacturer, these PC's have specific component lists...Which, is true.

I never once said, they were limited by AMD/Nvidia/Intel/AMD/etc...I said there were predefined specs and per my sources, AW themselves, there are.

thumb.gif
Is it just easier being ignorant to reality or, do you choose just not to educate yourself on the real world and how things actually function?

I'm not sure but, it's one or the other.

Dude there is literally a steam machine listed from Intel integrated graphics to multiple titan x's. That is in no way shape or form standardized. Nor is it any different than how "pre defined" pre built PC's have been for a decade. These steam boxes have absolutely no difference to any PC.

What happens when new hardware comes out? New steam boxes, upgrades etc... Now there is double the amount of possible steam box configurations which were already out of control.

I really don't see how any argument could go against streamlining one machine for like $500 and letting developers know that the hardware won't change for like 4 years. It would take very little time for them to optimize a game for the steam box.

Each different vendor could have made their own design, but the hardware remained the same. Leave it with the ability to upgrade if people see fit, but lose the guarantee of optimization.

Even AAA developers would probably have considered the machine then.... And as much as people say AAA games are bad, they are the life blood of any gaming device.

They targeted the wrong people. These devices should have been aimed at console gamers not pc gamers, we already have PC's.
Edited by Ultracarpet - 11/10/15 at 12:49pm
Sorry AMD
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Sorry AMD
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