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[Gamespot] Gabe Newell: Valve's Steam Machines Outperform Consoles at Same Price Point - Page 16

post #151 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

That is actually not what I said.

I said that Steam Machines are designed within a specific window.

Alienware had a parts list...As did everyone else...

You as the end user are free to upgrade if you choose to but, coming from the manufacturer, these PC's have specific component lists...Which, is true.

I never once said, they were limited by AMD/Nvidia/Intel/AMD/etc...I said there were predefined specs and per my sources, AW themselves, there are.

thumb.gif
Is it just easier being ignorant to reality or, do you choose just not to educate yourself on the real world and how things actually function?

I'm not sure but, it's one or the other.

The ignorant trying to lecture others on being ignorant while not realizing that they themselves are being ignorant. That's you.

In what world does 3 different GPU manufacturers (spanning at least 4 architectures) equal standardization? Not to mention CPU and RAM differences? Developers are going to have to code for those configurations, so they may as well just leave it at what they're already doing for PCs, with no special optimization for Steam Machines. Special optimization only works when there is only one hardware configuration that is guaranteed not to change for a long enough amount of time. A console competitor must have only one configuration that is static for a few years. Anything else, and it's just another PC with a fancy badge on it.

Steam Machines in their current form are not console competitors no matter how much Gabe wants them to be. They're just prebuilt HTPCs with Steam Big Picture preloaded, and for Linux versions, a greatly limited game library. They will not do anything to change the face of gaming.
Edited by Tsumi - 11/10/15 at 2:45pm
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post #152 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post


Steam Machines in their current form are not console competitors no matter how much Gabe wants them to be. They're just prebuilt HTPCs with Steam Big Picture preloaded, and for Linux versions, a greatly limited game library. They will not do anything to change the face of gaming.

And yet the alienware just sold out. You judge the market as if it were OCNers who buy PC and nobody else. So what, consumers are dumb ? Doesn’t matter, sales are what count.


btw its a custom GPU of sorts in the alienware a mobile part. And a reviewer tried to build ( an ugly ass ) PC at the same price and failed. He couldn’t get a self built as cheap as the alienware ! I urge you to try it, dont forget the free controller ( $50 / £39 ) and the decent wireless support ( $$ dongle )

also, don't forget its got to fit near the TV and not look like something out of a 1980's transformers cartoon.


ohh and have a warranty


ohh and some free games..

and try buying a U-SFF case that looks nice and doesn’t cost a lot

*edit here:

^

The Alienware seems like a genuinely good machine regardless of SteamOS, Linux, Windows for the form factor, design, warranty and price and plug n playability. Its going to sell well for more reasons than just SteamOS I think.
Edited by Pip Boy - 11/10/15 at 4:30pm
post #153 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob27shred View Post

What are you talking about? "Ever wonder why consoles are the focus? 1 set of hardware. Now, with the steam machines, they have it...And the market is catching on." Not even close on this statement. While I will admit the Steam Boxes are very Intel & Nvidia centric they by no means have a standardized set of hardware. You get Steam boxes that have from i3s to i7s Haswell or Skylake, the GPUs can range from 750tis all the way up to Titan Xs. Now that's just taking the intel/nvidia setups into account, while I haven't seen one myself yet the Steam boxes also allow for AMD CPUs & GPUs to be used. No sure where you are getting the idea that devs will have a standardized set of hardware to work with on the Steam boxes? Also your statement implies that games will developed with the Steam box in mind or directly for it which will not happen. Basically anybody who gets one of these as there main gaming machine will be very disappointed because 99% (if not all) games release for Windows & consoles in the 1st place. If a certain game becomes a hit & makes some money then they start thinking about porting it to linux i.e Steam OS. The bottom line about Steam boxes IMO is a great idea horribly executed. thumb.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by HowHardCanItBe View Post

What are you on about? There are 15 billion versions of the steam machines. I am not the average consumer, but these are way too many choices here and when you give someone too many choices, you confuse the average Joe even more.

http://store.steampowered.com/sale/steam_machines

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAslanX View Post

Wrong, there are too many machines with varying price points and hardware configurations to make a single set of hardware. No different than it is now.

Excellent video explaining why it's going to fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC6XK8oK4-c

Replying to all 3 of you at once.

Steam machines have a set list of parts they must have in order to be called Steam Machines. It's one of the provisions of the contract. /Dropmic.

So it's actually irrelevant how many parts variations there are now in existing "steam machines"...They're within the contract.

It's still SIGNIFICANTLY less than what exists on the open market...So, once again, set parts lists.

It's still a lot of choices. 2 vs 15. What would you choose? Besides, the price alone puts people off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoorishBrutha View Post

I hope the Steam Machine becomes successful because it will kill off two of my enemies: Microsoft and Consoles. Consoles need to go because they are holding back PC Gaming and Microsoft has too much of a control of PC Gaming with Windows, case in point- forcing PC Gamers to upgrade to the spyware known as Windows 10.

Consoles are not to blame for holding back PC gaming. The funny thing is both platforms help each other out and keep pushing it forward. Consoles and PCs are both great platforms. Don't blame the platform for crappy ported games. Blame the actual developers for intentionally doing a half-assed job.
post #154 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest2000 View Post

You say that it's not extra development time, then you say it would just be a port. That's a contradiction. If you develop for PC, PS4, and X1, and then decide to do a special port OR additional optimzation for Steam Machine, either way you're using additional development resources to do so. The only time it's NOT additional dev resources is if you're creating a Steam Machine exclusive.

My point is that I don't see any developer going out of their way to create a special build for Steam Machines aside from their PC build. They'll just see Steam Machines as any other PC, even if Steam Machines have a tight group of official hardware configs.

If any developer willing support steam machine, we'd see at least 2-3 steam machine exclusive titles by now. But before that they will need to find a reason to convince publishers/fund raisers why build a game for steam machine makes sense and will yield good result to the investment. that alone will make their heads explode.

The problem with steam machine is, it's more of a headache than just a rebranded PC, it runs on Linux OS, which adopt OpenGl as API to run/develop games. It compatible with less games, runs slower on the same PC components and it's far less accessible compare to an average PC, every PC to steam machine game require a port effort from QA and production team even though their hardware structure are exactly the same. forget about steam machine exclusive. Make a PC game work on Linux alone is a problem, make a console/pc multiplate on steam? more problem. Steam machine exclusive?

what set consoles and PC apart is console's unique development environment, even years before each console's release, developers already got their hands on early documentation based on console structure/resource allocation, final spec predication, as well as development kit/software from manufacture's engineers.

Back then, Gabe didn't like PC's development frame work provided by MS because of Windows 8. But trying to make another PC running on Linux OS and try to take a pie in PC and console market? Good luck.
Edited by CryphicKing - 11/10/15 at 5:42pm
    
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post #155 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip Boy View Post

And yet the alienware just sold out. You judge the market as if it were OCNers who buy PC and nobody else. So what, consumers are dumb ? Doesn’t matter, sales are what count.


btw its a custom GPU of sorts in the alienware a mobile part. And a reviewer tried to build ( an ugly ass ) PC at the same price and failed. He couldn’t get a self built as cheap as the alienware ! I urge you to try it, dont forget the free controller ( $50 / £39 ) and the decent wireless support ( $$ dongle )

also, don't forget its got to fit near the TV and not look like something out of a 1980's transformers cartoon.


ohh and have a warranty


ohh and some free games..

and try buying a U-SFF case that looks nice and doesn’t cost a lot

*edit here:

^

The Alienware seems like a genuinely good machine regardless of SteamOS, Linux, Windows for the form factor, design, warranty and price and plug n playability. Its going to sell well for more reasons than just SteamOS I think.

Selling out doesn't say much for how much is actually sold. If I told you I sold out all of my Steam machines, but I only made 100 of them, would you still say I sold a lot?

Consumers are dumb. Well, not dumb, most want things to just work without tinkering. It is for that reason people choose consoles. Steam machines do not have that simplicity. Steam machine owners will have all the same problems PC users have, not the console experience they want.

Don't forget the early adopter effect. Early adopters will buy almost anything at/before launch, and gives little indication as to how well the product would sell over its lifetime.

Custom GPU doesn't mean squat. It's as custom as the custom GPU in the Surface Book. It may run at custom clock speeds and custom TDP, but it's still a normal chip from nVidia.

I just priced out an i3 6100 system with GTX 750 ti, onboard wifi, 1tb hard drive, 8gb RAM, in a Silverstone ML07B (HTPC ITX case), with a 500 watt Silverstone Gold PSU for $585, $550 with rebates. In comparison, the Alienware $550 system is an i3 4130T with otherwise similar specs (unknown PSU and hard drive model). Not only does the system I specced out have a significantly newer and more powerful CPU (3.7 vs 2.9 ghz, not to mention architecture advantage), it can have the GPU upgraded, which the Alienware can't. The only Alienware Steam Machine with value is the lowest end one, mostly because its near impossible for consumers to get low end parts at the discounts OEMs get them at. The only thing its missing is the controller, which I don't believe is revolutionary or worth 50. Maybe 25-30. And the games? Maybe 20 at most if bought during Steam sales. The individual warranties (3-5 years for most of the components) are far longer than the 1 year Dell provides. FYI.
Edited by Tsumi - 11/10/15 at 6:19pm
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post #156 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Selling out doesn't say much for how much is actually sold. If I told you I sold out all of my Steam machines, but I only made 100 of them, would you still say I sold a lot?

Consumers are dumb. Well, not dumb, most want things to just work without tinkering. It is for that reason people choose consoles. Steam machines do not have that simplicity. Steam machine owners will have all the same problems PC users have, not the console experience they want.

Don't forget the early adopter effect. Early adopters will buy almost anything at/before launch, and gives little indication as to how well the product would sell over its lifetime.

Custom GPU doesn't mean squat. It's as custom as the custom GPU in the Surface Book. It may run at custom clock speeds and custom TDP, but it's still a normal chip from nVidia.

I just priced out an i3 6100 system with GTX 750 ti, onboard wifi, 1tb hard drive, 8gb RAM, in a Silverstone ML07B (HTPC ITX case), with a 500 watt Silverstone Gold PSU for $585, $550 with rebates. In comparison, the Alienware $550 system is an i3 4130T with otherwise similar specs (unknown PSU and hard drive model). Not only does the system I specced out have a significantly newer and more powerful CPU (3.7 vs 2.9 ghz, not to mention architecture advantage), it can have the GPU upgraded, which the Alienware can't. The only Alienware Steam Machine with value is the lowest end one, mostly because its near impossible for consumers to get low end parts at the discounts OEMs get them at. The only thing its missing is the controller, which I don't believe is revolutionary or worth 50. Maybe 25-30. And the games? Maybe 20 at most if bought during Steam sales. The individual warranties (3-5 years for most of the components) are far longer than the 1 year Dell provides. FYI.

Finally, someone who actually understands this. Unless there's an actual number how many they produced for sale, selling out doesn't mean absolutely nothing.
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post #157 of 247
Have you guys noticed how they changed the steam store for these machines? Now there are only 3 companies steam boxes listed.
Sorry AMD
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post #158 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

The ignorant trying to lecture others on being ignorant while not realizing that they themselves are being ignorant. That's you.

In what world does 3 different GPU manufacturers (spanning at least 4 architectures) equal standardization? Not to mention CPU and RAM differences? Developers are going to have to code for those configurations, so they may as well just leave it at what they're already doing for PCs, with no special optimization for Steam Machines. Special optimization only works when there is only one hardware configuration that is guaranteed not to change for a long enough amount of time. A console competitor must have only one configuration that is static for a few years. Anything else, and it's just another PC with a fancy badge on it.

Steam Machines in their current form are not console competitors no matter how much Gabe wants them to be. They're just prebuilt HTPCs with Steam Big Picture preloaded, and for Linux versions, a greatly limited game library. They will not do anything to change the face of gaming.

Look man. A former employee passed on that there are specific hardware requirements...Considering they HAVE a Steam machine that his team specifically designed - His word is god.

That being said, to any developer in the business, a hardware window, actually makes sense and rumors are that the licensing deal is CHEAP because Gabe wants new blood...

Also, I never once offered my opinion. I said it made sense and it COULD be a good idea if done well...It can be. Never said that I thought it was anything. Also never said it would "change the face of gaming" I said that it could standardize the market, two completely different concepts.

By the way, having 5 different cpu choices on 5 different motherboard with 20 different card choices is still a world away from the over 500 motherboards, 200 CPU's, 500+ GPU's and the over 1000 ram choices available right now on Newegg from over 50 different "major manufacturers".

Care to do some math?

Just sayin.
post #159 of 247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post


I just priced out an i3 6100 system with GTX 750 ti, onboard wifi, 1tb hard drive, 8gb RAM, in a Silverstone ML07B (HTPC ITX case), with a 500 watt Silverstone Gold PSU for $585, $550 with rebates. In comparison, the Alienware $550 system is an i3 4130T with otherwise similar specs (unknown PSU and hard drive model). Not only does the system I specced out have a significantly newer and more powerful CPU (3.7 vs 2.9 ghz, not to mention architecture advantage), it can have the GPU upgraded, which the Alienware can't. The only Alienware Steam Machine with value is the lowest end one, mostly because its near impossible for consumers to get low end parts at the discounts OEMs get them at. The only thing its missing is the controller, which I don't believe is revolutionary or worth 50. Maybe 25-30. And the games? Maybe 20 at most if bought during Steam sales. The individual warranties (3-5 years for most of the components) are far longer than the 1 year Dell provides. FYI.


But you didnt add $50 for the steam controller ?

And you just said upgrading wouldn’t really be in the ball park of a typical consumer who might buy this ? (although you can upgrade the CPU, HDD, RAM , wireless NIC , and add other stuff to the USB ports and possibly the internal M-SATA) but yea for now you can't on this first model, but then again the TDP is weighted to the design, PSU, its been thermally designed so I can see why they did this (also for less RMA headaches )


finally did I mention again yours only has individual parts warranty and no controller ? (you did actually )


and also : Silverstone ML07B

ml07-34right-1.jpg



and then ..


DSC00187-noscale.jpg


which one looks better in the living room ? or is easier to fit in a small space in a bedroom , dorm or even its possible to take and plug into hotel HDTV via hdmi on a trip ? Or even that boring family vacation, because its so tiny. The whole point is Gabe / Valve wanted to expand the PC experience into as many areas as seamlessly as possible.

Im not disputing the core facts that your pre-built is more flexible. But you didn’t actually make a system more compelling to a consumer just because you built it yourself.. your not the target market here. Also the fact is, the price on the Alienware for once isn’t a total rip .. its might not hold true for other Steam machines but you can't make a better self built and include the games, warenty, controller, AC wireless, form factor, looks for the same price .. and then there is the time spent building and hopefully not RMA'ing parts..


did you cost in thermal grease ? just because you have it lying around doesn’t mean a potential pre-built buyer does

did you cost in sata connections ?

what was your motherboard did it feature AC wireless ?

Even if you did break even, lets say the next version has a swappable GPU and its a tiny bit larger, then your build looks even less compelling. Nobody is forcing anyone to stop pre-building or arguing over flexibility but pound for pound you didn’t make a compelling case for the pre-built Steam machine and that’s got to be a first. 5 years ago a system this small with those components and form factor couldn’t of been achieved without serious modding.

Before we were talking Windows PC vs pre built Windows PC.
Edited by Pip Boy - 11/11/15 at 8:05am
post #160 of 247
Silverstone looks way better.

Also, you dont count in that OEMs actually buy bulk. Bulk = cheaper. So He is somewhere near the right ballpark.
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