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Is 144HZ Freesync TN panel worth sacrificing the color of an IPS panel? - Page 4

post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mopar63 View Post

Panel choice discussions always get bogged down in the specs and tech and forget that the experience is all that matters.

144Hz panels are great for twitch gaming and rock in competitive FPS play. In that play environment image quality takes a back seat to pure speed of response. For this TN panels rule.

IPS panels have come on strong of late for gamers focusing on solo play and specifically RPG games. The image quality is more important than frame rates with these types of games and so 60Hz is plenty to get a great experience and the better colors enrich the immersion of the RPG experience.

The good news is the panel qualities are shifting so that it is possible to get the best of both worlds. New TN panels have really good color reproduction and high end IPS monitors can push to 100Hz and better.

And these 100+ Hz IPS panels also have very good response times, and now we have VA panels with much better color accuracy (as good as your common LG AH-IPS or AUO AHVA panels) and high refresh rates and much better response times than ever before. Hopefully we continue to see a push in VA gaming monitors, the superior blacks and contrast are of utmost importance to me but I also prioritize high refresh rate and variable refresh rate.
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post #32 of 53
There was a post I read awhile ago that sums it up pretty well.

1. Colors
2. Fluidity
3. Price

Pick Two.

For the Dell U2515, you should be getting extraordinary color quality on a 1440p monitor for a decent price when compared to others, however you will be missing out on fluidity as it will just be 60hz and 6ms response time which is pretty standard stuff. For the AOC G2460PF, you will be getting way better fluidity at a lower price than the dell, but at a loss of color quality and viewing angles, as well as a lower resolution.

If you pick colors and fluidity, you will end up with something like the ASUS MG279Q but have to pay out the wazoo for it. If you can pay for it, it is definitely worth it. If not then you have to decide:

Do I want colors or do I want fluidity?
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolfathan View Post

fstoppers guide on calibrating a monitor. While I am a graphic designer, I swear, photographers know way more about proper color than a lot of graphic designers seem to.

"Misconceptions About Calibration: IPS Monitors Don't Need Calibration

IPS monitors are exceptional, and most preferred for graphic design and photography. However, they still need color calibration on the regular. The most important part of an IPS monitor is actually it's viewing angle. Most IPS monitors get their name for the ability to view them at wide angles without any color or contrast shifts, like you might see in an LED or LCD monitor. This just means more accurate color readings, even if you're a little off axis with the monitor."

The above guide links to this guide on types of monitors and the benefits of each. It references info from TFT central as well.

"Wide Color Gamut – The monitor’s color gamut refers to color reproduction, or basically how well colors can be accurately displayed in any given situation. This is feature that is absolutely crucial when it comes to creative professionals. The wider the color gamut, the better the display can reproduce extended colors found in the Adobe RGB and NTSC color gamuts."

If the monitor says wide gamut, or particularly high Adobe RGB coverage, as boredgunner pointed out, then chances are that it is good for graphic design.

TFTCentral's review of an art focused ASUS monitor sheds some light onto it as well.

TFT Central, on a monitor that was designed to calibrate itself. Because some designers feel the need to calibrate often.

PCMag article on what monitor to get as a graphic designer.

99Designs article on what you would want as a graphic designer.

Adobe forum discussion on what monitors to get as a graphic designer.

Some VA panels are coming out with very good color, but it's only a few of them. And that is something I should have mentioned sooner. But most of them aren't aimed directly at good color coverage, like almost all IPS panels are.

VA may hit the same level someday though.
Yes, yes, but the wide gamut has nothing to do with the panel technology. What gamut your monitor has is determined by the backlight. WLED will give you sRGB coverage, which is what pretty much every monitor has nowadays, unless they're wide-gamut displays of course.
https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-evolution-of-led-backlights/
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut.htm
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/speccontent.htm#gamut

Either way, 99% of the content you will consume is in sRGB, and for that you only need a monitor capable of displaying an sRGB gamut. Even if you had a wide gamut monitor, you'd run it in sRGB mode, otherwise the colors will not be accurately reproduced and will end up looking very neon.
I'm well aware that you can calibrate any monitor, and that IPS monitors for professional, color-critical work need to be calibrated.
You could outfit a TN monitor with a backlight that lets you reproduce wide-gamut colors, but what's the point? The color shifting on TN monitors will prevent the colors from looking accurate, and that is ultimately why they're not used for color-critical work.

Trust me, I did the reading. I don't like to get bogged down by buzzwords, I research everything I invest money into.
Edited by Noshuru - 12/25/15 at 7:51am
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post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noshuru View Post

Yes, yes, but the wide gamut has nothing to do with the panel technology. What gamut your monitor has is determined by the backlight. WLED will give you sRGB coverage, which is what pretty much every monitor has nowadays, unless they're wide-gamut displays of course.
https://pcmonitors.info/articles/the-evolution-of-led-backlights/
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut.htm
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/speccontent.htm#gamut

Either way, 99% of the content you will consume is in sRGB, and for that you only need a monitor capable of displaying an sRGB gamut. Even if you had a wide gamut monitor, you'd run it in sRGB mode, otherwise the colors will not be accurately reproduced and will end up looking very neon.
I'm well aware that you can calibrate any monitor, and that IPS monitors for professional, color-critical work need to be calibrated.
You could outfit a TN monitor with a backlight that lets you reproduce wide-gamut colors, but what's the point? The color shifting on TN monitors will prevent the colors from looking accurate, and that is ultimately why they're not used for color-critical work.

Trust me, I did the reading. I don't like to get bogged down by buzzwords, I research everything I invest money into.

The bit of a monitor translates directly to a measurable number.

From what you linked "A pixel with 8-bit color depth per channel with RGB value [255; 0; 0] would obviously be red. But without a color space assigned there would be no way to tell what the chromaticity for red should be."

The color space/gamut is a range of colors. 255 is essentially the corner of the the triangle. Makes sense. Generally companies that advertise the Adobe RGB coverage are using nicer panels. (Not always the case, but 95% of the time I've seen it, it was decent)

So what this means is that 255,0,0 is pure Red. And if the monitor complies to the sRGB coverage, then 255,0,0 will look exactly the same on every calibrated monitor that claims the sRGB coverage.
But sRGB does not equate accurate color representation for all the colors within those limitations.
To explain better, let's go down to the basics.

Instead of an 8-bit panel, let's look at a 1-bit panel.

It would show you black and white. 0,0,0 and 255,255,255. (The binary is just 1 or 0)
A 2-bit panel would show you Black, white, and two shades of grey. So, 0,0,0, 255, 255, 255. Then 85, 85, 85 and 170, 170, 170. (I believe the binary would look like 00, 11, 01, 10. Someone correct me on this.)

Both of these, if the black and white looked the same on the two different monitors would actually have the same gamut (in this case, just black and white), because the extremes looked identical.
If someone said "Does this follow the RolfathanBlack&White gamut?" the answer would be Yes.

The sRGB standard is good, and you know you will not have dull color. The bit-depth will answer the question of "How many steps are inbetween one corner of the Gamut and the other?"

8-bits per color channel (or 24-bits per pixel) equates to over 16 million colors. Or 256 shades of each, red, green, and blue.

10-bit panel represents over a billion colors. This is 1024 shades of each, red, green, and blue.

Most digital movie projectors use 12-bit now. Find me a 12-bit TFT. You won't find it. They can both have the same gamut, but they will not show the same full spectrum, and this is why panel technology plays a role, and why the industry follows these "buzzwords" because these "buzzwords" actually represent measurable numbers.

Now, if all these monitors, 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit, etc follow the sRGB standard, the full value Red would look identical on all of them. What changes is when you make a gradient between two opposite colors (or just black and white) and the higher the Bit depth, the less banding you will see (Banding is an observable difference between colors in a gradient. When colors appear to transition very smoothly, one can conclude that there is no banding.)

A 6-bit panel cannot show a full 256 shades per color, which is the absolute minimum anyone should accept.

EDIT: To clarify, that last line, I mean 256 shades per color should be the minimum, so go with an 8-bit at least.

EDIT2: Here is an example of what banding looks like

And that Red value, (255,0,0) and black (0,0,0) are identical. They still fall within the same gamut.
Edited by rolfathan - 2/2/16 at 3:47pm
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolfathan View Post

The bit of a monitor translates directly to a measurable number.

From what you linked "A pixel with 8-bit color depth per channel with RGB value [255; 0; 0] would obviously be red. But without a color space assigned there would be no way to tell what the chromaticity for red should be."

The color space/gamut is a range of colors. 255 is essentially the corner of the the triangle. Makes sense. Generally companies that advertise the Adobe RGB coverage are using nicer panels. (Not always the case, but 95% of the time I've seen it, it was decent)

So what this means is that 255,0,0 is pure Red. And if the monitor complies to the sRGB coverage, then 255,0,0 will look exactly the same on every calibrated monitor that claims the sRGB coverage.
But sRGB does not equate accurate color representation for all the colors within those limitations.
To explain better, let's go down to the basics.

Instead of an 8-bit panel, let's look at a 1-bit panel.

It would show you black and white. 0,0,0 and 255,255,255. (The binary is just 1 or 0)
A 2-bit panel would show you Black, white, and two shades of grey. So, 0,0,0, 255, 255, 255. Then 85, 85, 85 and 170, 170, 170. (I believe the binary would look like 00, 11, 01, 10. Someone correct me on this.)

Both of these, if the black and white looked the same on the two different monitors would actually have the same gamut (in this case, just black and white), because the extremes looked identical.
If someone said "Does this follow the RolfathanBlack&White gamut?" the answer would be Yes.

The sRGB standard is good, and you know you will not have dull color. The bit-depth will answer the question of "How many steps are inbetween one corner of the Gamut and the other?"

8-bits per color channel (or 24-bits per pixel) equates to over 16 million colors. Or 256 shades of each, red, green, and blue.

10-bit panel represents over a billion colors. This is 1024 shades of each, red, green, and blue.

Most digital movie projectors use 12-bit now. Find me a 12-bit TFT. You won't find it. They can both have the same gamut, but they will not show the same full spectrum, and this is why panel technology plays a role, and why the industry follows these "buzzwords" because these "buzzwords" actually represent measurable numbers.

Now, if all these monitors, 8-bit, 10-bit, 12-bit, etc follow the sRGB standard, the full value Red would look identical on all of them. What changes is when you make a gradient between two opposite colors (or just black and white) and the higher the Bit depth, the less banding you will see (Banding is an observable difference between colors in a gradient. When colors appear to transition very smoothly, one can conclude that there is no banding.)

A 6-bit panel cannot show a full 256 shades per color, which is the absolute minimum anyone should accept.

EDIT: To clarify, that last line, I mean 256 shades per color should be the minimum, so go with an 8-bit at least.

EDIT2: Here is an example of what banding looks like

And that Red value, (255,0,0) and black (0,0,0) are identical. They still fall within the same gamut.
Thank you, I'm fully aware what banding is, what the bit-depth of a monitor is, and I have no issues with binary. Why are you telling me all this? Where did I insinuate that a bit-depth of 6bit is superior to higher bit-depth solutions? Did you maybe reply to the wrong person?
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post #36 of 53
If you're a "casual" gamer I think you will be better off with the IPS.

The newer TN 1440p 144 Hz panels are not that bad tho. Colors are much better than older TN panels I've seen, viewing angles still not good tho, but some can live with that.

VA could also be worth looking at, if you can accept mediocre response times and bad viewing angles (but good blacks and contrast).
Edited by Lass3 - 2/3/16 at 6:40am
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post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

I

VA could also be worth looking at, if you can accept mediocre response times and bad viewing angles (but good blacks and contrast).

Wow so bad huh?

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/benq_bl3200pt/viewing_angles.png

TN is the only panel type in which viewing angles are a problem for head-on viewing.
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post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Wow so bad huh?

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/images/benq_bl3200pt/viewing_angles.png

TN is the only panel type in which viewing angles are a problem for head-on viewing.

Nah, It was a problem on Eizo FG2421. "240" / 120 Hz VA gaming monitor. Mediocre responsetimes too.

Moving head in front of the sceen, and colors changed. Worse than most good/new TN panels.
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post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

Nah, It was a problem on Eizo FG2421. "240" / 120 Hz VA gaming monitor. Mediocre responsetimes too.

Moving head in front of the sceen, and colors changed. Worse than most good/new TN panels.

Yeah the FG2421 is known for both of those things. More severe off center contrast shift, gamma shift, and very slow peak response times (although many of its response times for other transitions are very fast). Although I know at the time, the viewing angles were better than the best TN monitors, but maybe TN has improved since then.
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The Wish Granter
(27 items)
 
Legacy Build
(18 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700X @ 3.7 GHz ASUS ROG Crosshair VI Hero X370 Zotac GTX 1080 Ti AMP Extreme G.SKILL TridentZ RGB 32GB DDR4 2933 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 960 Pro 1TB Samsung 850 EVO 500GB Samsung 850 EVO 250GB Cryorig H7 Quad Lumi 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit Acer Predator XB270HU w/ Ideal Lume Standard bi... MK Disco TKL (KBT Black) Antec HCP Platinum 750W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ATX Tempered Glass Logitech G Pro Cooler Master Storm Speed-RX Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Yamaha RX-V579BL Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE Fluance XL7C Fluance AVBP2 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Gustard U12 Chord Mojo Yamaha YST-SW012 8-inch subwoofer Blue Yeti Microphone w/ Pop Filter 
OtherOtherOther
Furman M-8X2 Power Conditioner Ducky Pocket Mechanical Keypad (Cherry MX Blue) NZXT Hue+ 
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Intel Core 2 Extreme QX6850 @ 3.6 GHz XFX nForce 680i LT XFX GeForce 8800 Ultra EVGA e-GeForce 9800GTX+ 
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EVGA e-GeForce 9800GX2 EVGA GeForce GTX 295 dual PCB OCZ Reaper 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 1066 Intel 330 Series 180GB 
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Thermalright Venomous-X Delta AFC1212D-PWM Silverstone AP141 Windows 7 Professional 64-bit 
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LG Flatron IPS235 Ducky Shine DK9087 Shine 2 (Cherry MX Red, gree... EVGA G2 850W Lian-Li PC-7HX 
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post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

Yeah the FG2421 is known for both of those things. More severe off center contrast shift, gamma shift, and very slow peak response times (although many of its response times for other transitions are very fast). Although I know at the time, the viewing angles were better than the best TN monitors, but maybe TN has improved since then.

Viewing angles are not better than even an average TN panel. I had a FG2421 for a few weeks last year. Terrible viewing angles and the colorshifting was really bad. Blacks were good, colors too, but it felt slow, like all other VA panels I've seen. Way too much blur when playing Quake Live or other fast paced fps games.
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Golden Ivy
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HTPC
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-3770K @ 5 GHz Gigabyte Z77X-UD5H 980 Ti @ 1580/2000 2x 8GB G.Skill @ 2400/CL10 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
2x 850 Evo 500 GB Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Asus PG258Q 1080p/240Hz TN 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
Dell U2515H 1440p/60Hz AH-IPS Logitech G610 MX-Red + O-Rings EVGA SuperNova G2 850W Logitech G403 
AudioAudio
Asus Xonar Essence STX Philips Fidelio X1 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
i3-4150T AsRock Z97E-ITX/ac 2x 4GB @ 1600/CL9 Samsung 850 Evo 250GB + 20TB NAS 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Monitors and Displays › Is 144HZ Freesync TN panel worth sacrificing the color of an IPS panel?