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[TT] NVIDIA should launch its next-gen Pascal GPUs with HBM2 in 2H 2016 - Page 62

post #611 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

Togther with Fury X because of lack of VRAM.
It's VRAM is 3 times faster.
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post #612 of 724
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Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

It's VRAM is 3 times faster.

haha so? Just because it's HBM with higher bandwidth does not mean it can store more data.

Rise of the Tomb Raider with textures on Very High requires above 4GB. Less results in stuttery gameplay. Textures flush and load.
4GB was a compromise from the beginning on Fury series. This is not the first game that can utilize more than 4GB.
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post #613 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

haha so? Just because it's HBM with higher bandwidth does not mean it can store more data.

Rise of the Tomb Raider with textures on Very High requires above 4GB. Less results in stuttery gameplay. Textures flush and load.
4GB was a compromise from the beginning on Fury series. This is not the first game that can utilize more than 4GB.

No,

That's actually not true. Fiji uses HBM like embeded cache, so even if a game uses more than 4GB of VRAM, it doesn't impact performance. Read up: http://m.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/29/rise_tomb_raider_graphics_features_performance/14#.VtWOyeTS9oM

This myth has been dispelled. For AMD, 4GB HBM is enough for 4K.
Quote:
Even though the AMD Radeon R9 Fury X has the least amount of dedicated VRAM here it too does not differ much in performance using "Very High" textures. It seems that dynamic VRAM usage is not harming performance here.

While this game may use a lot of VRAM with "Very High" textures, it doesn't suffer in performance because of it.
Quote:
The AMD Radeon R9 Fury X kind of backs that statement up since it was able to allocate dynamic VRAM for extra VRAM past its 4GB of dedicated VRAM capacity. We saw up to a 4GB utilization of dynamic VRAM. That allowed the Fury X to keep its 4GB of dedicated VRAM maxed out and then use system RAM for extra storage. In our testing, this did not appear to negatively impact performance. At least we didn't notice anything in terms of choppy framerates or "micro-stutter." The Fury X seems to be using the dynamic VRAM as a cache rather than a direct pool of instant VRAM. This would make sense since it did not cause a performance drain and obviously system RAM is a lot slower than local HBM on the Fury X. If you remember a good while ago that AMD was making claims to this effect, but this is the first time we have actually been able to show results in real world gaming. It is awesome to see some actual validation of these statements a year later.

AMD:
Quote:
Note that HBM and GDDR5 memory sized can’t be directly compared. Think of it like comparing an SSD’s capacity to a mechanical hard drive’s capacity. As long as both capacities are sufficient to hold local data sets, much higher performance can be achieved with HBM, and AMD is hand tuning games to ensure that 4GB will not hold back Fiji’s performance. Note that the graphics driver controls memory allocation, so its incorrect to assume that Game X needs Memory Y. Memory compression, buffer allocations, and caching architectures all impact a game’s memory footprint, and we are tuning to ensure 4GB will always be sufficient for 4K gaming. Main point being that HBM can be thought of as a giant embedded cache, and is not directly comparable to GDDR5 sizes.

HBM is different than GDDR5. Its bandwidth is used like an embeded cache. Anything that requires quick access, sits in the HBM, other lower bandwidth sensitive storage needs go into the System RAM.

It works, 0 performance hit. The myth has been finally put to rest.
Edited by Mahigan - 3/1/16 at 5:13am
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post #614 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

haha so? Just because it's HBM with higher bandwidth does not mean it can store more data.

Rise of the Tomb Raider with textures on Very High requires above 4GB. Less results in stuttery gameplay. Textures flush and load.
4GB was a compromise from the beginning on Fury series. This is not the first game that can utilize more than 4GB.

I don't pretend to know how it works, but I have seen a couple of benchmarks where the Fury HBM cards had like 2.5 GB Vram used and the Geforce 980 like 3,2 GB Vram used.

I might be wrong though thinking.gif
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post #615 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

No,

That's actually not true. Fiji uses HBM like embeded cache, so even if a game uses more than 4GB of VRAM, it doesn't impact performance. Read up: http://m.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/29/rise_tomb_raider_graphics_features_performance/14#.VtWOyeTS9oM

This myth has been dispelled. For AMD, 4GB HBM is enough for 4K.

AMD:
HBM is different than GDDR5. Its bandwidth is used like an embeded cache. Anything that requires quick access, sits in the HBM, other lower bandwidth sensitive storage needs go into the System RAM.

It works, 0 performance hit. The myth has been finally put to rest.

I guess thats why alot of Fury owners complain about stuttering with very high textures in RotTR. Together with 4GB Hawaii users, and 970/980.
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post #616 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

I guess thats why alot of Fury owners complain about stuttering with very high textures in RotTR. Together with 4GB Hawaii users, and 970/980.

but its actually the logical thing to do, it reduces the expensive GDDR5/HBM requirement and offloads most of the less-prioritized data to system RAM.
better yet, if this could make mainstream GPUs cheaper, then all the more reason to embrace this approach.
and on top of that, it puts more value into faster system RAM, now we got a reason to go for large capacity 3Ghz+ DDR4 RAM kits.

i mean, we barely got much use for 2x8GB/4x8GB kits, but with this approach, we can extend the system RAM's use for video textures.
Edited by epic1337 - 3/1/16 at 5:51am
post #617 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

No,

That's actually not true. Fiji uses HBM like embeded cache, so even if a game uses more than 4GB of VRAM, it doesn't impact performance. Read up: http://m.hardocp.com/article/2016/02/29/rise_tomb_raider_graphics_features_performance/14#.VtWOyeTS9oM


This myth has been dispelled. For AMD, 4GB HBM is enough for 4K.

AMD:
HBM is different than GDDR5. Its bandwidth is used like an embeded cache. Anything that requires quick access, sits in the HBM, other lower bandwidth sensitive storage needs go into the System RAM.

It works, 0 performance hit. The myth has been finally put to rest.

wth.gif

All VRAM is used for anything that "requires quick access". That's the entire point of VRAM (local, high-speed GPU memory), because discrete GPU use of system RAM has both horrendously worse latency and bandwidth. All discrete GPUs can access system RAM (equally quickly too), it doesn't lend HBM-equipped cards any exclusive advantage.

4 GBs is 4 GBs and HBM is not utilized any different from GDDR5 just like various GDDR5 implementations of disparate bus sizes and frequencies don't inherently differ from one another in capacity due to resulting bandwidth.

Considering the 512 GB/s of Fiji's HBM-provided bandwidth refers only to communication speed between the GPU and VRAM directly, it provides no advantage whatsoever for Fiji's ability to access system RAM and therefore does not reduce the amount of data Fiji must hold in VRAM at any given time. AMD's direct quote skirts around capacity by simply highlighting HBM's bandwidth/performance (which is flat-out irrelevant to capacity; their analogy of SSDs and HDDs of equivalent sizes are limited to the same amount of stored data for instance) and by referencing aforementioned driver-based optimizations AMD are doing to avoid the capacity's limitations such as this part:
Quote:
Memory compression, buffer allocations, and caching architectures all impact a game’s memory footprint, and we are tuning to ensure 4GB will always be sufficient for 4K gaming.


Fiji's bandwidth due to HBM is literally irrelevant to system RAM accessibility (which is instead governed by PCI-E speeds) and any optimizations AMD make in where they allocate data (VRAM vs system RAM) would be equally as possible on any GDDR5-based GPU.

Whether Fiji's VRAM capacity is particularly relevant to RoTR, I don't know, but 4 GBs really is 4 GBs (a hard limit on the amount of data that can be stored locally; i.e. in VRAM).
Edited by Serandur - 3/1/16 at 6:05am
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post #618 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serandur View Post

wth.gif

All VRAM is used for anything that "requires quick access". That's the entire point of VRAM (local, high-speed GPU memory), because discrete GPU use of system RAM has both horrendously worse latency and bandwidth. All discrete GPUs can access system RAM (equally quickly too), it doesn't lend HBM-equipped cards any exclusive advantage.

4 GBs is 4 GBs and HBM is not utilized any different from GDDR5 just like various GDDR5 implementations of disparate bus sizes and frequencies don't inherently differ from one another in capacity due to resulting bandwidth.

Considering the 512 GB/s of Fiji's HBM-provided bandwidth refers only to communication speed between the GPU and VRAM directly, it provides no advantage whatsoever for Fiji's ability to access system RAM and therefore does not reduce the amount of data Fiji must hold in VRAM at any given time. AMD's direct quote skirts around capacity by simply highlighting HBM's bandwidth/performance (which is flat-out irrelevant to capacity; their analogy of SSDs and HDDs of equivalent sizes are limited to the same amount of stored data for instance) and by referencing aforementioned driver-based optimizations AMD are doing to avoid the capacity's limitations such as this part:
Fiji's bandwidth due to HBM is literally irrelevant to system RAM accessibility (which is instead governed by PCI-E speeds) and any optimizations AMD make in where they allocate data (VRAM vs system RAM) would be equally as possible on any GDDR5-based GPU.

Whether Fiji's VRAM capacity is particularly relevant to RoTR, I don't know, but 4 GBs really is 4 GBs (a hard limit on the amount of data that can be stored locally; i.e. in VRAM).

It's possible to do on GDDR5 but GDDR5 isn't as fast as HBM. AMD also do this for the 390 series if you read the review. And I never said it reduced the data held in system RAM. You created that strawman yourself. Yes it is 4GB capacity but used as a quick access embeded cache like we see on some consoles. Any data requiring quicker access resides on the HBM, data which is not bandwidth bound resides on the system RAM. The end result is 0 performance hit.

Prior to the Fiji launch AMD had this to say:
Quote:
“If you actually look at frame buffers and how efficient they are and how efficient the drivers are at managing capacities across the resolutions, you’ll find that there’s a lot that can be done.*We do not see 4GB as a limitation that would cause performance bottlenecks. We just need to do a better job managing the capacities. We were getting free capacity, because with [GDDR5]*in order to get more bandwidth we needed to make the memory system wider, so the capacities were increasing. As engineers, we always focus on where the bottleneck is. If you’re getting capacity, you don’t put as much effort into better utilising that capacity.*4GB is more than sufficient. We’ve had to go do a little bit of investment in order to better utilise the frame buffer, but we’re not really seeing a frame buffer capacity [problem]. You’ll be blown away by how much [capacity] is wasted.

And they were right.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)




Edited by Mahigan - 3/1/16 at 6:28am
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post #619 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lass3 View Post

I guess thats why alot of Fury owners complain about stuttering with very high textures in RotTR. Together with 4GB Hawaii users, and 970/980.

No stuttering was detected in HardOCPs review. They specifically mentioned that.

Where are you getting your anecdotal evidence from? Pre-AMD driver update issues? As for 4GB NVIDIA cards suffering, yes, they would. They don't have these optimizations. The Hawaii cards I'm not sure about. These are per game optimizations by AMD. Which is likely why Baffin XT (Polaris 11) will launch with 4GB as well. That GPU will likely prove what AMD have said once and for all. Vega 11 will likely use 8GB HBM2.

As per anecdotal evidence, NVIDIA drivers crash Windows 10. Does that mean you're having that issue?
Edited by Mahigan - 3/1/16 at 6:37am
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post #620 of 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

Let the healing begin by Nvidia not only issuing a mea culpa regarding the 970 fiasco, but by meaning it.. fire all unscrupulous, and brand damaging sales people …

I'm still not clear why you think there's anything "unscrupulous" about this. There was no deception involved, there was no upside to making people think the spec sheet was correct. This could only ever have blown up in their faces, and it really wouldn't have made much difference had it been correct from the start.

To call them "unscrupulous" means that they pulled a fast one on us, which means intent. Far more likely, it was just a stupid mistake on the part of their marketing team, that you are now demonizing them for because you want them to be demons.
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