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[OC3D] AMD's Zen will have a "greater than 40%" IPC improvement over Excavator, says Lisa Su - Page 37

post #361 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

What? When did he say that? You need to actually provide the direct quote if you go and say "so and so said this"
I am actually pretty sure you typed a "4" when you meant to type a "3" there.

many times. I wont quote, because i am not going to read his comments again. Take his words with "grain of salt"
post #362 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

many times. I wont quote, because i am not going to read his comments again. Take his words with "grain of salt"
Yet every time I have seen him put numbers in a most Stilt was saying that it would be low to mid 3GHz. That is why I want a quote you can give. DOnt just say something and claim oh I wont provide any evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious_Don View Post

I can't find any sources to verify the 95W claim with any confidence. Don't forget the i7-6700k is rated 91W TDP, so this claim falls more in line with a 4 core.

A HUGE portion of the 6700's TDP listing is also from the iGPU side of the die too though. We know that Zen will have a model or two (or more) that will not have any iGPU in the die, pure CPU cores. We also know the node is a low power designed node. With it being an entirely new architecture too we cant really compare what we have had with previous CPUs to what we should expect from a newer CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrious View Post

TBH I wonder why no one has tried to make a "hybridized" LGA socket. Short nubs on the CPU, which contacts the socket spring pins, through a protective plastic or fiberglass shield. The shield prevents the spring contacts from getting damaged easily, and the nubs on the CPU are stronger than normal pins while not being as long.

Thicker pins means less density, something CPUs need more of and not less. It also means slightly higher costs on the CPU and also higher costs on the MB side as well. All around it has no real good side other than end user durability (which the manufacturers care little about since they have the process down already) and lots of bad sides.
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post #363 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by F3ERS 2 ASH3S View Post

Can you source the rumor

This was rumor from AMD labs. But still it could be easy lie.

No, the 40% is From AMD labs.. And no such rumor exists stating that they have a lot of back end bottlenecks.

They redesigned the caching system which has a lot to do with the back end. They wouldn't brag about that if they knew it was going to be an issue. SO your statement is FALSE
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

TheStill said that ZEN will be smaller than Skylake and will reach around 4.0-4.5GHz. Could be ZEN more power efficient?

What? When did he say that? You need to actually provide the direct quote if you go and say "so and so said this"
I am actually pretty sure you typed a "4" when you meant to type a "3" there.

This. If someone said it. ESPECIALLY from this site. then there is no reason to not be able to quote unless you are just spreading lies..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

What? When did he say that? You need to actually provide the direct quote if you go and say "so and so said this"
I am actually pretty sure you typed a "4" when you meant to type a "3" there.

many times. I wont quote, because i am not going to read his comments again. Take his words with "grain of salt"

As much as I disagree with him I will also say that he has A LOT more knowledge on this subject matter. SO much so that he even created a program that AIDED in the PD design essentially removing the x87 code that runs terrible on all construction cores.. TBH I trust his insights and I appreciate a good debate with him and completely respect his knowledge on the subject matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

many times. I wont quote, because i am not going to read his comments again. Take his words with "grain of salt"
Yet every time I have seen him put numbers in a most Stilt was saying that it would be low to mid 3GHz. That is why I want a quote you can give. DOnt just say something and claim oh I wont provide any evidence.

Actually it will take me a few but I will pull that up and quote it here. HE DID say that it was low to mid 3Ghz, especially basing on Intels nodes. + the addition with FinFet.. there is no reason to not expect that at the low end. If its higher fantastic.. however it merely puts a good basis of what to expect and WILL prevent the hype that BD ensued
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious_Don View Post

I can't find any sources to verify the 95W claim with any confidence. Don't forget the i7-6700k is rated 91W TDP, so this claim falls more in line with a 4 core.

A HUGE portion of the 6700's TDP listing is also from the iGPU side of the die too though. We know that Zen will have a model or two (or more) that will not have any iGPU in the die, pure CPU cores. We also know the node is a low power designed node. With it being an entirely new architecture too we cant really compare what we have had with previous CPUs to what we should expect from a newer CPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrious View Post

TBH I wonder why no one has tried to make a "hybridized" LGA socket. Short nubs on the CPU, which contacts the socket spring pins, through a protective plastic or fiberglass shield. The shield prevents the spring contacts from getting damaged easily, and the nubs on the CPU are stronger than normal pins while not being as long.

Thicker pins means less density, something CPUs need more of and not less. It also means slightly higher costs on the CPU and also higher costs on the MB side as well. All around it has no real good side other than end user durability (which the manufacturers care little about since they have the process down already) and lots of bad sides.

^this
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post #364 of 841
What are you trying to tell me?
I told you a rumor which is that ZEN is fast as haswell +-%. Its a rumor = 80% lie/20% true

I am no giving names who told me that, because it a rumor and I dont want to make lies.

TheStilt doesnt even know how large is ZEN, he and other guys only predict from the data which they collected. Even if he is great its hard to predict how fast zen will be. Its stupid to say that ZEN wont match or beat skylake/haswell. Its to early. Same way for the frequency, we dont know how high will zen OC.

And yes Thestilt said around 3GHz for stock, some predict max OC around 4-4.5GHz.

Dont be silly, we have few informations which can tell how zen will look and we know that ZEN is finished so ZEN+ is in development. I think thats the reason why AMD choose to put ZEN out in late 2016. Because 14nm wasnt mature yet and high clock were unreachable.

I also expect something like TheStil said, but it may be very wrong. We need more data.
post #365 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

What are you trying to tell me?
I told you a rumor which is that ZEN is fast as haswell +-%. Its a rumor = 80% lie/20% true

I am no giving names who told me that, because it a rumor and I dont want to make lies.

TheStilt doesnt even know how large is ZEN, he and other guys only predict from the data which they collected. Even if he is great its hard to predict how fast zen will be. Its stupid to say that ZEN wont match or beat skylake/haswell. Its to early. Same way for the frequency, we dont know how high will zen OC.

And yes Thestilt said around 3GHz for stock, some predict max OC around 4-4.5GHz.

Dont be silly, we have few informations which can tell how zen will look and we know that ZEN is finished so ZEN+ is in development. I think thats the reason why AMD choose to put ZEN out in late 2016. Because 14nm wasnt mature yet and high clock were unreachable.

I also expect something like TheStil said, but it may be very wrong. We need more data.

Well there is a lot of what you said and how you said it that placed it as one thing and not the other. If we didn't say anything you wouldn't have corrected yourself.

Although the stilt and others where talking, this was based off of the notion of 40% higher IPC ,, meaning die size has nothing to do with it.. IMO PD was 315 mm² and I don't see AMD going any bigger than that. 40% IPC gain ONLY means that. Die size could be 200mm or 400mm and it still would not make any difference as it does not change the Instructions per clock The only thing that would make the difference is frequency given that parameter.

OC to 4 or 4.5 is still a very generous predictions.. and prediction I would say is the wrong word, be more speculating as prediction is based off of facts and at this point we have very little facts to base off of

I wouldn't put the node not mature yet either.. it is new, you are correct on not mature.. however Architecture + node dictate what it can do.. and simply any statement at this time is nothing more the pure speculation that has no grounds of any evidence.
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post #366 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by F3ERS 2 ASH3S View Post

Thestilt ran numbers based on the specs of ipc that amd projects, there has been no benching @The Stilt please clarify

TheStilt's numbers and my numbers were quite similar, each falling within a few % of Haswell's IPC. All clock speed estimates are pure conjecture, as clock speed is determined by a combination of transistor leakage, power handling, and CPU design. 14nm LPP has nothing about it that would suggest a 4GHz+ chip can't be built with it, but it will certainly not be as easy as with a more frequency-oriented process. As for core size, I believe it is pure conjecture as well, only based on minimal data and personal assumptions (and maybe some wishful thinking).

What is "known" about Zen (from GCC patch, AMD):

01. 4x ALU
02. 4x FPU pipes (gangable for AVX2)
03. 2x AGU (LOAD+STORE)
04. 4x FastPath Decoders
05. Lower latency caches (2/10/24 is allegedly possible based on AMD patents and papers)
06. 32KB L1D/I, 512KB L2, 8MB L3 (for quad core module) - Unverified, but rather likely
07. "Closer to 4GHz than 2GHz" clock speeds - not much to go on...
08. DDR4 Only (AMD slides)
09. FinFet (14/16nm)
10. SMT
11. 40% IPC over Excavator

For a (thorough) breakdown of Zen's apparent core capabilities:

http://looncraz.net/ZenAssignments.html

And for Haswell:

http://looncraz.net/HswAssignments.htm

From this, we can see that Haswell is basically an augmented four pipe unit (makes sense knowing its history), while Zen is a more pure 10-pipe unit.

Zen has a number of advantages over Haswell, in fact, for extracting ILP. It can do double the floating point divisions, 50% more MMX additions, and it should have double the floating point multiplication capabilities... however, this is all just based on EU assignments in the GCC patch, which may not fully reflect the way the core actually executes.
post #367 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by F3ERS 2 ASH3S View Post

Well there is a lot of what you said and how you said it that placed it as one thing and not the other. If we didn't say anything you wouldn't have corrected yourself.

Although the stilt and others where talking, this was based off of the notion of 40% higher IPC ,, meaning die size has nothing to do with it.. IMO PD was 315 mm² and I don't see AMD going any bigger than that. 40% IPC gain ONLY means that. Die size could be 200mm or 400mm and it still would not make any difference as it does not change the Instructions per clock The only thing that would make the difference is frequency given that parameter.

OC to 4 or 4.5 is still a very generous predictions.. and prediction I would say is the wrong word, be more speculating as prediction is based off of facts and at this point we have very little facts to base off of

I wouldn't put the node not mature yet either.. it is new, you are correct on not mature.. however Architecture + node dictate what it can do.. and simply any statement at this time is nothing more the pure speculation that has no grounds of any evidence.

That's why I'm really excited to see Broadwell-E's pricing and OC ability. If they can get Zen close to Haswell, well, that's not too far off from Broadwell and I think Broadwell-E might be a poor OCer. Only thing is, Intel may release the 8c/16t version for $599 so if Zen has an 8c/16t CPU that also OCs relatively poorly with roughly similar IPC, I can't see them pricing it super competitively.
post #368 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdarkreap3rxx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by F3ERS 2 ASH3S View Post

Well there is a lot of what you said and how you said it that placed it as one thing and not the other. If we didn't say anything you wouldn't have corrected yourself.

Although the stilt and others where talking, this was based off of the notion of 40% higher IPC ,, meaning die size has nothing to do with it.. IMO PD was 315 mm² and I don't see AMD going any bigger than that. 40% IPC gain ONLY means that. Die size could be 200mm or 400mm and it still would not make any difference as it does not change the Instructions per clock The only thing that would make the difference is frequency given that parameter.

OC to 4 or 4.5 is still a very generous predictions.. and prediction I would say is the wrong word, be more speculating as prediction is based off of facts and at this point we have very little facts to base off of

I wouldn't put the node not mature yet either.. it is new, you are correct on not mature.. however Architecture + node dictate what it can do.. and simply any statement at this time is nothing more the pure speculation that has no grounds of any evidence.

That's why I'm really excited to see Broadwell-E's pricing and OC ability. If they can get Zen close to Haswell, well, that's not too far off from Broadwell and I think Broadwell-E might be a poor OCer. Only thing is, Intel may release the 8c/16t version for $599 so if Zen has an 8c/16t CPU that also OCs relatively poorly with roughly similar IPC, I can't see them pricing it super competitively.

TBH I see AMD reaching for the same price ranges if they can
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncraz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by F3ERS 2 ASH3S View Post

Thestilt ran numbers based on the specs of ipc that amd projects, there has been no benching @The Stilt please clarify

TheStilt's numbers and my numbers were quite similar, each falling within a few % of Haswell's IPC. All clock speed estimates are pure conjecture, as clock speed is determined by a combination of transistor leakage, power handling, and CPU design. 14nm LPP has nothing about it that would suggest a 4GHz+ chip can't be built with it, but it will certainly not be as easy as with a more frequency-oriented process. As for core size, I believe it is pure conjecture as well, only based on minimal data and personal assumptions (and maybe some wishful thinking).

What is "known" about Zen (from GCC patch, AMD):

01. 4x ALU
02. 4x FPU pipes (gangable for AVX2)
03. 2x AGU (LOAD+STORE)
04. 4x FastPath Decoders
05. Lower latency caches (2/10/24 is allegedly possible based on AMD patents and papers)
06. 32KB L1D/I, 512KB L2, 8MB L3 (for quad core module) - Unverified, but rather likely
07. "Closer to 4GHz than 2GHz" clock speeds - not much to go on...
08. DDR4 Only (AMD slides)
09. FinFet (14/16nm)
10. SMT
11. 40% IPC over Excavator

For a (thorough) breakdown of Zen's apparent core capabilities:

http://looncraz.net/ZenAssignments.html

And for Haswell:

http://looncraz.net/HswAssignments.htm

From this, we can see that Haswell is basically an augmented four pipe unit (makes sense knowing its history), while Zen is a more pure 10-pipe unit.

Zen has a number of advantages over Haswell, in fact, for extracting ILP. It can do double the floating point divisions, 50% more MMX additions, and it should have double the floating point multiplication capabilities... however, this is all just based on EU assignments in the GCC patch, which may not fully reflect the way the core actually executes.

I see the bold being 3.7.. something just tells me in my gut.. save this post if I am right I will parade it down hahaha
Edited by F3ERS 2 ASH3S - 1/27/16 at 7:48am
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post #369 of 841

Where is @Seronx ? 

    
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post #370 of 841
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Originally Posted by imran27 View Post

Where is @Seronx
 ? 

helmetsmiley.png
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