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[OC3D] AMD's Zen will have a "greater than 40%" IPC improvement over Excavator, says Lisa Su - Page 39

post #381 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by imran27 View Post

Where is @Seronx
 ? 
AMD's Zen will not beat Ivy Bridge, it might score about the same as Sandy Bridge. Only workloads that have unit choke on Bulldozer(15h) will have Zen(17h) being faster.

Bulldozer was largely crippled before it ever launched. The 45nm version had about the same execution resources as Zen.

45nm 2008 Tapeout(FDSOI);
4 ALUs; 2 Complex ALUs(MUL/DIV/BR/POPCNT) + 2 Load/Store ALUs(LD/ST AGU+ALU minus Complex(MUL/DIV/BR/POPCNT))
4 FP128 FPU units; 2 FP/PK-ADDs + 2 FP/PK-MULs (PK = Packed Integer)

32nm 2010 Tapeout(PDSOI);
2 ALUs + 2 AGLUs; 2 Complex ALUs(same as above) + Load/Store/Logic AGUs(LD/ST/Logic ^ crippled)
4 FP128 FPU units; 2 FPFMAC(1 PKFMAC) + 2 PKADDs (Crippled)

The only reason I can find out from above is that AMD was largely FDSOI at the time. The sale of GlobalFoundries largely obliterated any FDSOI nodes for more Bulk and HVM IBM nodes.
Edited by Seronx - 1/27/16 at 11:53am
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post #382 of 841
Well that's rather disappointing.
Edited by Greenland - 1/27/16 at 12:16pm
post #383 of 841
Carrizo is coming out for FM2+ I've got a bios update on my other computer.

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4714#bios

Someone should disassemble it to find out what the CPU specifications are of the Carrizo models.
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post #384 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

AMD's Zen will not beat Ivy Bridge, it might score about the same as Sandy Bridge. Only workloads that have unit choke on Bulldozer(15h) will have Zen(17h) being faster.

Bulldozer was largely crippled before it ever launched. The 45nm version had about the same execution resources as Zen.

45nm 2008 Tapeout(FDSOI);
4 ALUs; 2 Complex ALUs(MUL/DIV/BR/POPCNT) + 2 Load/Store ALUs(LD/ST AGU+ALU minus Complex(MUL/DIV/BR/POPCNT))
4 FP128 FPU units; 2 FP/PK-ADDs + 2 FP/PK-MULs (PK = Packed Integer)

32nm 2010 Tapeout(PDSOI);
2 ALUs + 2 AGLUs; 2 Complex ALUs(same as above) + Load/Store/Logic AGUs(LD/ST/Logic ^ crippled)
4 FP128 FPU units; 2 FPFMAC(1 PKFMAC) + 2 PKADDs (Crippled)

The only reason I can find out from above is that AMD was largely FDSOI at the time. The sale of GlobalFoundries largely obliterated any FDSOI nodes for more Bulk and HVM IBM nodes.

Ivy Bridge is barely faster than Sandy Bridge, and Haswell isn't that much faster than Ivy Bridge... it is a rather narrow range we're discussing. I expect Haswell IPC to be the best case scenario for overall performance, but the math says to expect it (based on an average 40% IPC increase over Excavator). As always, it depends on what instructions benefit most. A new cache policy, alone, is worth plenty, along with dedicated FPUs.

Do you have a source for what instructions each AGLU/ALU can execute in the Steamroller or Excavator integer core?

From the GCC patches, it would suggest that the entire Bulldozer family has a lot of limitations - such as the whole core being occupied during integer division - that Zen does not.

Steamroller/Excavator has three floating point units, not four, according to the patch (https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/master/gcc/config/i386/bdver3.md)

The AGLUs seem to mostly handle things like LEA, which Zen's ALUs handle, but I don't see what else they might be able to execute (such as add or mmx instructions).

With Zen, though, it seems quite clear that it can do two adds while doing a division and doing a multiplication. That's a drastic improvement from the construction cores. Likewise, Zen's FPU varies from 50% wider to (peak, dynamic, effectively) 3x wider.

For example, in the best case for both, Excavator can do two fadds while Zen can do three. However, in the worst case, Excavator can only do one fadd, but Zen can still do three (ignoring the ability to keep the instructions/data flowing...).

Naturally, IPC will not increase uniformly. I would not be surprised to see some performance regressions in certain, limited, scenarios. On the whole, though, Haswell IPC should be achievable for integer loads... floating point is another matter, but it should be vastly improved any time where higher ILP can be extracted. The construction cores just had so much going against them that Zen does not.

In fact, when you compare Haswell to Zen (both according to their GCC patches and published data), Zen should be able to eclipse Haswell in a number of specific scenarios (though these scenarios are more common when SMT is in play - so it may just be AMD struggling to make a decent SMT implementation so that it is a decent value-add).
post #385 of 841
This is what I want from Zen

Within 10% IPC of haswell
3.0ghz + clock speed
8 integer cores
95 watt TDP
~200$

That is just me. Based on the rumor mill that seems plausible - which is nice, I thought for sure I would never be able to buy AMD again. Here is to hoping thumb.gif
post #386 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

AMD's Zen will not beat Ivy Bridge, it might score about the same as Sandy Bridge. Only workloads that have unit choke on Bulldozer(15h) will have Zen(17h) being faster.

Do you make a lot of money as a psychic?
post #387 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by mothergoose729 View Post

This is what I want from Zen

Within 10% IPC of haswell
3.0ghz + clock speed
8 integer cores
95 watt TDP
~200$

That is just me. Based on the rumor mill that seems plausible - which is nice, I thought for sure I would never be able to buy AMD again. Here is to hoping thumb.gif

All of that seems plausible except for the 200$ pricepoint. I am not saying they will not have a Zen option at 200$, but I doubt the 8 core will be that option. With that description, that 8 core/16 thread will be giving haswell i7s a run for their money, dependent on workload and on clock rate. That product would be very competitive and IMO, No way that would be priced below 300ish
 
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post #388 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

All of that seems plausible except for the 200$ pricepoint. I am not saying they will not have a Zen option at 200$, but I doubt the 8 core will be that option. With that description, that 8 core/16 thread will be giving haswell i7s a run for their money, dependent on workload and on clock rate. That product would be very competitive and IMO, No way that would be priced below 300ish

$200 for an 8 core 16 thread CPU within 10% performance of a 5960x just plain isn't going to happen. AMD will price the hardware as close to current market for the performance, especially at launch. I'm waiting for that kind of performance to be available at $499 and expect I'll be waiting until no sooner than 2017 sad-smiley-002.gif

Just did a quick check at sold listing on ebay.. looks like 4960X (Ivy bridge 6 core) still goes USED for $350-500 at the cheapest.
Edited by Serious_Don - 1/27/16 at 11:04pm
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post #389 of 841
If you're shrewd enough, there is a way to get a 5960X for less than $100 that DOES NOT involve stealing or anything illegal, but would require some luck and a lot of patience.
post #390 of 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

If you're shrewd enough, there is a way to get a 5960X for less than $100 that DOES NOT involve stealing or anything illegal, but would require some luck and a lot of patience.

In before your PM inbox is full within 30 seconds. biggrin.gif
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