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3840 x 1600 monitors are coming (2.4:1 aspect ratio) - Page 5

post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenwing View Post

...It is that way because the software developers decided to set it that way...

For game developer FOV is just a trivial scaling factor. Know what they think of this issue? "Geez, just decide what FOV you want, and I will render the stuff on the screen with required proportions (HOR, muhomor, whatever)". This is why all 3D game engines have FOV setting console command (or variable in the preferences file). With increasing display size disparity it would become progressively more evident that the existing method is HORrible. They will fix it or, at least, will make this setting less obscure, regardless of your ludicrous plea: "widescreen has to be wider".
Edited by Tegiri Nenashi - 1/27/16 at 5:01pm
post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegiri Nenashi View Post

For game developer FOV is just a trivial scaling factor. Know what they think of this issue? "Geez, just decide what FOV you want, and I will render the stuff on the screen with required proportions (HOR, muhomor, whatever)". This is why all 3D game engines have FOV setting console command (or variable in the preferences file). With increasing display size disparity it would become progressively more evident that the existing method is HORrible. They will fix it, regardless of your ludicrous plea: "widescreen has to be wider".

They'll keep the method. Ultrawides are non-standard, that can be handled that way without much complaint from the userbase.

Devs will however keep developing with the screen size in mind, that the average gaming user uses. It used to be 19inch 4:3 or less, now it's 23-24(maybe 27) inch 16:9, and maybe in the future, the standard for people will be 28 inch or higher (32+?) 16:9.

Consequently, default FoV size might go up, in some pc games. For consoles, it depends on TV size and viewing distance, but similar concept.

Anything beyond that requires guessing viewing distance and screen size. On the topic of that, I'm quite curious how close people sit on average, to an untrawide, or to a 4k monitor.
Edited by Tivan - 1/27/16 at 5:06pm
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post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

They'll keep the method. Ultrawides are non-standard, that can be handled that way without much complaint from the userbase.

Devs will however keep developing with the screen size in mind, that the average gaming user uses. It used to be 19inch 4:3 or less, now it's 23-24(maybe 27) inch 16:9, and maybe in the future, the standard for people will be 28 inch or higher (32+?) 16:9.

Consequently, default FoV size might go up, in some pc games. For consoles, it depends on TV size and viewing distance, but similar concept.

Anything beyond that requires guessing viewing distance and screen size.

It depends how much attention this issue gets. Once again, 10 years ago widescreen community were screaming about too narrow FOV (compared to 4:3). If enough gamers with 40"+ displays complain, they would do something about it.

After all, it is probably couple lines of code within million lines long game engine code. It is not rocket science.
post #44 of 53
So coming from owning a 40" 4K monitor for almost a year now, I'll solve this once and for all.

Setting an ultra wide resolution of 3820x1600 in the nvidia control panel will allow me to play all games that support it with black bars.

Now it is true for most games that you'll see more FOV with a wider aspect ratio, but there are exceptions. One example I can think of is runescape in 4K makes everything super small but I can see a ton of stuff if I zoom out.

Now for my opinion, 40" 4K is a perfect sweet spot and could even be a little bigger for a smaller pixel density. I do wish it had higher refresh rate and a little faster response time and it would be perfect
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post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegiri Nenashi View Post

After all, it is probably couple lines of code within million lines long game engine code. It is not rocket science.

How specifically would you go about detecting monitor size? Is that info available in the monitor? I'm no expert on this!

Also, accounting for the fact that people sit a little further from bigger monitors, oftentimes, is a consideration. But nothing a little surveying couldn't fix, if you find enough people to survey.
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post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

How specifically would you go about detecting monitor size? Is that info available in the monitor? I'm no expert on this!

Also, accounting for the fact that people sit a little further from bigger monitors, oftentimes, is a consideration. But nothing a little surveying couldn't fix, if you find enough people to survey.

Apparently, the display sends its model and resolution to OS during handshake. I'm not sure if it sends its size, but if Display Port 1.3 standard doesn't include it, that is pretty dumb. Anyway, people are eager to put all kind of databases on the web, and I don't see why we can't have a database that matches display model code with its size.

Distance is a little trickier, and has been discussed two pages ago. However, reflecting little on this, here is simple method that doesn't require neither display size, nor viewing distance. Human eye angular resolution is well known - one arc minute. It is the basis for recommended viewing distance. Why cant they just multiply this arcminute by horisontal number of pixels, get the FOV angle, and be done with it?

Example: UHD screen is 3840 pixels wide. Divide it by 60 arcminutes within one degree, we obtain 64 degrees. See how well this works?

P.S. Here is an old thread raising the same issue. There, by calculating geometry of my setup, I've got 74 degrees. Corollary: I'm sitting pretty close to the optimal viewing distance!
Edited by Tegiri Nenashi - 1/27/16 at 5:49pm
post #47 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegiri Nenashi View Post

Apparently, the display sends its model and resolution to OS during handshake. I'm not sure if it sends its size, but if Display Port 1.3 standard doesn't include it, that is pretty dumb. Anyway, people are happy to put all kind of databases on the web, and I don't see why we can't have a database that matches display model code with its size.

Distance is a little trickier, and has been discussed two pages ago. However, reflecting little on this, here is simple method that doesn't require neither display size, nor viewing distance. Human eye angular resolution is well known - one arc minute. It is the basis for recommended viewing distance. Why cant they just multiply this arcminute by horisontal number of pixels, get the FOV angle, and be done with it?

I'd argue that pixel density is not a good reference for viewing distance, though. It's one of many factors that go into making for an enjoyable experience close or far from the monitor. Amount of Anti Aliasing and other filtering can play a major role here too. Not to forget virtual super resolution and that stuff. Which might end up setting more FoV, when it's really just a type of anti aliasing. Or people gaming at 1080p on their 40inch 4k monitors.

I see a point to be made about higher FoV on big pc monitors, don't get me wrong. Though it might be less related to pixel density than it seems at first glace.
Edited by Tivan - 1/27/16 at 5:35pm
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post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegiri Nenashi View Post

For game developer FOV is just a trivial scaling factor. Know what they think of this issue? "Geez, just decide what FOV you want, and I will render the stuff on the screen with required proportions (HOR, muhomor, whatever)". This is why all 3D game engines have FOV setting console command (or variable in the preferences file). With increasing display size disparity it would become progressively more evident that the existing method is HORrible. They will fix it or, at least, will make this setting less obscure, regardless of your ludicrous plea: "widescreen has to be wider".

There's no plea. You seem to have wandered away from the discussion, so let me clarify again. This debate isn't about what's better. It's about how things actually are. I don't really care if ultrawides have a wider field of view or not. I use 16:10 primarily so I'd stand to benefit over 16:9 users if HOR+ was gone. I'm simply stating the reality of how things are, since you seemed to be in denial about it and I didn't want you to keep spreading false information about how 16:9 4K displays will give you a larger FOV than an ultrawide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegiri Nenashi View Post

It depends how much attention this issue gets. Once again, 10 years ago widescreen community were screaming about too narrow FOV (compared to 4:3). If enough gamers with 40"+ displays complain, they would do something about it.

After all, it is probably couple lines of code within million lines long game engine code. It is not rocket science.

And what scaling method would you suggest? VER-? Where a 16:9 display such as 3840×2160 would have the same horizontal FOV as a 3840×1600 display, but with a larger vertical FOV? If you did that, it would also continue upwards as well; 3840×2880 (4:3) would have a larger FOV than 4K UHD, 16:9 resolutions would just display the same thing as 4:3 with the top and bottom cropped off. That's what we already had before, as you keep pointing out. Do you really think they'll go back to that? Also keep in mind this again is independent of resolution; since the horizontal FOV is fixed it doesn't matter what the specific resolutions are; a 1024×768 display would have a larger field of view than a 3840×2160 display, so if your main complaint about HOR+ is any low res 21:9 displays will have more FOV than the highest resolution 16:9 display, the other method (VER-) isn't any different, it's just a matter of direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMI4tth3w View Post

So coming from owning a 40" 4K monitor for almost a year now, I'll solve this once and for all.

Setting an ultra wide resolution of 3820x1600 in the nvidia control panel will allow me to play all games that support it with black bars.

Now it is true for most games that you'll see more FOV with a wider aspect ratio, but there are exceptions. One example I can think of is runescape in 4K makes everything super small but I can see a ton of stuff if I zoom out.

Now for my opinion, 40" 4K is a perfect sweet spot and could even be a little bigger for a smaller pixel density. I do wish it had higher refresh rate and a little faster response time and it would be perfect

Runescape is an interesting example, as it doesn't actually use any scaling method right now, it's just pixel-for-pixel. Higher vertical resolution will expand your vertical view, higher horizontal resolution will expand your horizontal view. Resolution actually does matter, unlike most games where it's scaled based on aspect ratio. Jagex is a bit behind and haven't put in any consideration for 4K resolutions, and you may notice distortion at the edge of your screen at 4K, the world curves away a bit more drastically than on a 1080p monitor, and the fog on the sides of the screen is much further into your field of view. I'm interested to see what scaling route they'll decide to take when they implement proper 4K support.

Civilization games I believe are another notable example of games that expand your FOV based on resolution, but I'm not 100% sure on that one, I'd have to check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

How specifically would you go about detecting monitor size? Is that info available in the monitor? I'm no expert on this!

Also, accounting for the fact that people sit a little further from bigger monitors, oftentimes, is a consideration. But nothing a little surveying couldn't fix, if you find enough people to survey.

Monitors don't carry any information about their physical size. The information exchanged with the computer is part of a standardized protocol called EDID, which contains information about the monitor such as a list of supported resolutions, frequencies, and timing formats; that's where Windows gets its list of resolution options from. In order to implement size information, EDID would have to be replaced with something else or with an updated version of EDID, and only monitors forward of that update would carry size information, and support for this new protocol would have to be implemented in operating systems and graphics card drivers as well. It's really outside the domain of games developers.

That being said I'm not 100% certain on this, perhaps @Peter Nixeus has more information than me and can set me straight one way or the other?

EDIT:

I went ahead and checked the EDID information for a few monitors I had on hand and it turns out they actually do carry physical size information in there, so I stand corrected on that point. But like I said, I'm not really concerned with what could be done or what's possible for game developers, or what method is best. My primary concern is about what how things actually are, in the real world, today. And the situation today is that almost all games use HOR+ scaling, and only aspect ratio affects your ingame image, not resolution or size.

http://puu.sh/mTvic/340ae7f4f3.png
Edited by Glenwing - 2/2/16 at 1:28pm
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post #49 of 53
There's no single FOV that's perfect for everyone, that's for sure! Two guys with the same monitor will almost always prefer different settings if given the choice.

Best option is for developers to make the FOV adjustable in the Setting menus. I know a few games already do that and hope more will follow now that non-standard AR displays are becoming popular.

Bring on the super-ultra-widescreens!
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsfrazier View Post

Thank you for this, you put what I have been trying to explain to people in a proper technical way.

I had friends with 40" 4k displays telling me I am missing out, or they are seeing more than me, because their 40" 4k display are the same width as my 34" ultrawide, but with addition viewing on the top and bottom of it.

Been trying to explain it them, that isn't how it works when it comes to gaming.

Most people look at it, as if they are just adding more pixels on the top and bottom of a 34" ultrawide, so the 40" 4k 16x9 must be better. But in reality, you are hacking off the sides of the 34" ultrawide, then stretching/scaling that image to fit the 40" 4k display. Therefore losing FOV.

Again, this is in relation to gaming.

Maybe there are games out there that actually take advantage of 4k displays and actually expand the FOV with the additional pixels 1:1, but I personally haven't played one.

Am I way wrong on this?

Wrong!
34 inch 21/9 3440x1440 has 31.125 inch width, 40 inch 16/9 3840x2160 has 34.875 width. Instead they both have almost same density pixel: 109.68 vs 110.15.
If you make a custom resolution (21/9 at 3840x1620) on 40 inch 4k you'll get that at 37.5 inch diagonal. So the same pixel density of 3440x1440 but bigger screen size.
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