Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [OC3D/TF] Pascal GP100 Titan coming as early as April and the GP104 GTX 1080/1070 to launch in June
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[OC3D/TF] Pascal GP100 Titan coming as early as April and the GP104 GTX 1080/1070 to launch in June - Page 26  

post #251 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by zealord View Post

GTX 580 -> GTX 680 was a 30-35%~ increase in performance although the die decreased in size from 550mm² to 294mm² !

It should be easily possibly to have a GTX 1080 that is 50% better than a 980 Ti if the GTX 1080 has a die size of around 400mm² (roughly same as GTX 980).

Think strategy here. All they need to get people to jump on 1080 is 20% over 980ti. Nvidia knows they will be stuck on this node for awhile, they will set themselves up to make GV104 or whatever slightly bigger in 2017, they are not going to hurt future sales by leaving no size increase left for their small die. They also have to worry about yield on a new node, smaller dies have better yields on an immature process. They will probably not have GP104 dies as large as 980, it seems really unlikely.
Edited by Biorganic - 1/27/16 at 12:50pm
 
Fat HTPC
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2700k Asrock Z77 extreme 4 Sapphire HD 7950 Boost 8 GB gskill ripX 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung F3 WD 500 Blue ASUS 212+ 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Win7 x64 Prof ASUS AS248H-P LG 21.5 1080p Keys of Boardness 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
XFX 750W XXX Antec 300, fanned out! Death Adder Klipsch Promedia 2.1 
AudioAudio
Xonar Dg Superlux HD 668B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II 955 ASUS M4A785T-M XFX HD 5670 1 GB Crucial Ballistix 2x2 GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
WD 500 Green Hyper 212+  Win 7 x64 Prof antec earthwatts 650 
Case
NZXT source 210 
  hide details  
 
Fat HTPC
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2700k Asrock Z77 extreme 4 Sapphire HD 7950 Boost 8 GB gskill ripX 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung F3 WD 500 Blue ASUS 212+ 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Win7 x64 Prof ASUS AS248H-P LG 21.5 1080p Keys of Boardness 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
XFX 750W XXX Antec 300, fanned out! Death Adder Klipsch Promedia 2.1 
AudioAudio
Xonar Dg Superlux HD 668B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II 955 ASUS M4A785T-M XFX HD 5670 1 GB Crucial Ballistix 2x2 GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
WD 500 Green Hyper 212+  Win 7 x64 Prof antec earthwatts 650 
Case
NZXT source 210 
  hide details  
post #252 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post


Think strategy here. All they need to get people to jump on 1080 is 20% over 980ti. Nvidia knows they will be stuck on this node for awhile, they will set themselves up to make GV104 or whatever slightly bigger in 2017, they are not going to hurt future sales by leaving no size increase left for their small die. They also have to worry about yield on a new node, smaller dies have better yields on an immature process. They will probably not have GP104 dies as large as 980, it's really unlikely.

The GP104 are presumably already gimped by only having GDDR5X and not HBM. A GP204 should have HBM.

White Whisper II
(15 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790k 4ghz Stock or 4.6 2133 or -HT 4.7 2133 ASUS Z97-PRO non sold my 970 Kingston fury 1866 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 850 evo  Noctura D14 Windows 7 Fujitsu P24W-6 IPS 1920x1200 
MonitorPowerCase
Benq GW2760hs 1080p VA Corsair RM850 Fractal define R4 
  hide details  
White Whisper II
(15 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790k 4ghz Stock or 4.6 2133 or -HT 4.7 2133 ASUS Z97-PRO non sold my 970 Kingston fury 1866 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung 850 evo  Noctura D14 Windows 7 Fujitsu P24W-6 IPS 1920x1200 
MonitorPowerCase
Benq GW2760hs 1080p VA Corsair RM850 Fractal define R4 
  hide details  
post #253 of 293
They probably won't get quite as many people to jump from the 980ti if the "1080" doesn't include 8gb of HBM2 unless the GPU performance increase is sizable. If the 1080 is 10-20% faster with 8gb of HBM2 and $550 or lower I think it will entice quite a few 980ti owners and a lot of 980 owners.
Computer
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-4790k Gigabyte Z97X Gaming 7 Nvidia GTX 1080ti FE (EK block) CORSAIR Vengeance 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 Evo Mushkin Reactor Custom Loop Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Ben Q BL3201PT Logitech G110 EVGA 1300w Thermatake Core P5 
MouseAudio
LOGITECH G502 PROTEUS CORE Corsair 2100 
  hide details  
Computer
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-4790k Gigabyte Z97X Gaming 7 Nvidia GTX 1080ti FE (EK block) CORSAIR Vengeance 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 Evo Mushkin Reactor Custom Loop Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Ben Q BL3201PT Logitech G110 EVGA 1300w Thermatake Core P5 
MouseAudio
LOGITECH G502 PROTEUS CORE Corsair 2100 
  hide details  
post #254 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by G woodlogger View Post

The GP104 are presumably already gimped by only having GDDR5X and not HBM. A GP204 should have HBM.

For some reason I don't think the HBM is going to provide that much of a benefit over GDDR5x, except where power savings is concerned, which would allow them to make a larger more powerful chip in the same tdp range. Look at the Fury vs 980/Ti, the HBM by itself isn't even enough to edge out regular GDDR5. Also, your argument assumes that HBM makes it into midrange chips and isn't exclusive to Titan/Ti variants.

This brings us back to my original stance, they will reserve larger die GP204 or whatever for later in 14/16 nm cycle. I still think we are unlikely to see 400 mm^2 GP104.
 
Fat HTPC
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2700k Asrock Z77 extreme 4 Sapphire HD 7950 Boost 8 GB gskill ripX 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung F3 WD 500 Blue ASUS 212+ 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Win7 x64 Prof ASUS AS248H-P LG 21.5 1080p Keys of Boardness 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
XFX 750W XXX Antec 300, fanned out! Death Adder Klipsch Promedia 2.1 
AudioAudio
Xonar Dg Superlux HD 668B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II 955 ASUS M4A785T-M XFX HD 5670 1 GB Crucial Ballistix 2x2 GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
WD 500 Green Hyper 212+  Win 7 x64 Prof antec earthwatts 650 
Case
NZXT source 210 
  hide details  
 
Fat HTPC
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2700k Asrock Z77 extreme 4 Sapphire HD 7950 Boost 8 GB gskill ripX 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung F3 WD 500 Blue ASUS 212+ 
OSMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Win7 x64 Prof ASUS AS248H-P LG 21.5 1080p Keys of Boardness 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
XFX 750W XXX Antec 300, fanned out! Death Adder Klipsch Promedia 2.1 
AudioAudio
Xonar Dg Superlux HD 668B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II 955 ASUS M4A785T-M XFX HD 5670 1 GB Crucial Ballistix 2x2 GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSPower
WD 500 Green Hyper 212+  Win 7 x64 Prof antec earthwatts 650 
Case
NZXT source 210 
  hide details  
post #255 of 293
Ok guys, we are all living in a highly greedy capitalist world so..... They are just business people, profit margin people, greedy people and NOT some enthusiasts, just remember that first before you post any assumptions.

Now, having all that said, it is expected that this for example GTX1080 will be at most 20% faster than GTX980Ti with possibly lower TDP and better energy efficiency but later we will see some increase in performance by optimizations through their drivers and THAT IS ALL!













End of story = Capitalism and consumerism wins.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570K Asus Maximus V Gene EVGA GTX1080 FTW Kingston HyperX Predator 8GB 2400MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung SSD 850 EVO 1TB Samsung SSD 830 128GB Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB Wester Digital Caviar Black 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
LG Corsair A50 Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit Asus ROG Swift PG348Q  
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell P2414H Lenovo Seasonic G-Series 650W Thermaltake 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G900  SS 4HD Logitech Z4 FiiO E10K amp/dac 
  hide details  
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570K Asus Maximus V Gene EVGA GTX1080 FTW Kingston HyperX Predator 8GB 2400MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung SSD 850 EVO 1TB Samsung SSD 830 128GB Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB Wester Digital Caviar Black 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
LG Corsair A50 Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit Asus ROG Swift PG348Q  
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell P2414H Lenovo Seasonic G-Series 650W Thermaltake 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G900  SS 4HD Logitech Z4 FiiO E10K amp/dac 
  hide details  
post #256 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

Think strategy here. All they need to get people to jump on 1080 is 20% over 980ti. Nvidia knows they will be stuck on this node for awhile, they will set themselves up to make GV104 or whatever slightly bigger in 2017, they are not going to hurt future sales by leaving no size increase left for their small die. They also have to worry about yield on a new node, smaller dies have better yields on an immature process. They will probably not have GP104 dies as large as 980, it seems really unlikely.

Nvidia is pretty good with strategic thinking and marketing. They exactly know how their customers tick.

500$ GPU -> slam Titan name tag on it -> 1000$ GPU !


AMD card 7970 is pretty bad -> rename GK104 from 660 to 680 -> worth 499$ now !


biggrin.gif
current rig
(4 items)
 
  
CPUGraphicsGraphicsKeyboard
2500k R9 290X Tri-X GTX 680 Filco Majestouch 2 Brown Ninja 
  hide details  
current rig
(4 items)
 
  
CPUGraphicsGraphicsKeyboard
2500k R9 290X Tri-X GTX 680 Filco Majestouch 2 Brown Ninja 
  hide details  
post #257 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biorganic View Post

For some reason I don't think the HBM is going to provide that much of a benefit over GDDR5x, except where power savings is concerned, which would allow them to make a larger more powerful chip in the same tdp range. Look at the Fury vs 980/Ti, the HBM by itself isn't even enough to edge out regular GDDR5. Also, your argument assumes that HBM makes it into midrange chips and isn't exclusive to Titan/Ti variants.

This brings us back to my original stance, they will reserve larger die GP204 or whatever for later in 14/16 nm cycle. I still think we are unlikely to see 400 mm^2 GP104.

Fury used HBMv1, Pascal will have HBMv2. There are significant differences between them.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 5820K AsRock Extreme6 X99 Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti Windforce OC 16 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 EVO 250GB - HDD Speed Edtition Samsung SM951 512 GB - I still hate Samsung!  Noctua NHD14 Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Achieva Shimian QH270-Lite Overlord Computer Tempest X27OC  Acer Predator XB270HU Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Seasonic X-1250 Fractal Design R5 Razer Naga Razer Goliathus Alpha 
AudioAudio
AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition Creative Sound Blaster Zx 
  hide details  
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 5820K AsRock Extreme6 X99 Gigabyte GTX 980 Ti Windforce OC 16 GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 EVO 250GB - HDD Speed Edtition Samsung SM951 512 GB - I still hate Samsung!  Noctua NHD14 Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
Achieva Shimian QH270-Lite Overlord Computer Tempest X27OC  Acer Predator XB270HU Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Seasonic X-1250 Fractal Design R5 Razer Naga Razer Goliathus Alpha 
AudioAudio
AKG K702 65th Anniversary Edition Creative Sound Blaster Zx 
  hide details  
post #258 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avant Garde View Post

Ok guys, we are all living in a highly greedy capitalist world so

For centuries now. The greed however is on both sides of the coin. The companies are greedy for more money while providing less product. The consumers are greedy for more product while paying less money. Which is worse probably depends on whether you are a consumer or a company selling a product.
Computer
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-4790k Gigabyte Z97X Gaming 7 Nvidia GTX 1080ti FE (EK block) CORSAIR Vengeance 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 Evo Mushkin Reactor Custom Loop Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Ben Q BL3201PT Logitech G110 EVGA 1300w Thermatake Core P5 
MouseAudio
LOGITECH G502 PROTEUS CORE Corsair 2100 
  hide details  
Computer
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-4790k Gigabyte Z97X Gaming 7 Nvidia GTX 1080ti FE (EK block) CORSAIR Vengeance 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 Evo Mushkin Reactor Custom Loop Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Ben Q BL3201PT Logitech G110 EVGA 1300w Thermatake Core P5 
MouseAudio
LOGITECH G502 PROTEUS CORE Corsair 2100 
  hide details  
post #259 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by zealord View Post

Imho Titan X and GTX 1080 being roughly the same speed would be a gigantic failure.

die shrink, new architecture. it just can't be.

We need a jump and AMD/Nvidia know this. They want to push VR, they want to push 4K. Disappointing 10-20% increases won't do.

I am way too stubborn anyways. For me to be interested in the new NVIDIA/AMD gpus this year they have to be :


500$ GPU has to be 40% better than current 980 Ti or I am not even remotely interested.

650$ GPU has to be 60% better than current 980 Ti or I am not even remotely interested.


I have no idea why some people are careful/conservative with what they except. For gods sake we have 2016 and we are jumping from 28nm to 16/14nm. This should be the big jump we have been expecting and sought for for so long.

AMD and Nvidia would be more glad to push low power consumption (ie. less hardware, cheaper to manufacture, bigger profit margin spun as though it were a win). Maxwell's market dominance suggests it would work and AMD's current PR for Polaris suggests power consumption is their current primary objective. As for VR, given current prices for the headsets, I'd think Nvidia and AMD would be more inclined to push for VR on their $1000 Titan-like SKUs instead and could get away with a GTX1080 slightly faster than a 980 Ti still being enough for VR at first.

As to why it might be right to expect more conservative performance increases:



Process Node Shrink: For the first time, the new process node isn't decreasing individual transistor cost. This means a GTX 1080 with a ~300mm^2 die size and the same transistor count and density as GM200 (980 Ti/Titan X) will be just as expensive to manufacture as GM200 (a 601mm^2 die; the largest GPU ever). In fact, it might even be a little more so at first given the maturity of 28nm vs the immaturity of 16/14nm nodes.



Given yield difficulties and initially sky high costs, it's not even very reasonable to expect a ~400mm^2 die from GP104. It's more likely that GP104 will be ~300mm^2 to ~350mm^2 maximum.

Meanwhile, looking back at the Fermi to Kepler transition, GF110 was actually significantly smaller than GM200 at a relatively small 520mm^2 (as opposed to GM200's massive 601 mm^2). The area scaling improvement going from 40nm to 28nm was also about 2x, just like TSMC's 16nm is about 2x as dense as 28nm:

http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/16nm.htm 16nm is 2x 28nm

http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/28nm.htm 28nm is 2x 40nm

I'll discuss architecture below as well.


New Architecture: There are limits as to just how efficient you can make an arrangement of transistors for a given task. The thing is, moving from Fermi to Kepler (especially consumer Kepler) was moving over from a more HPC-oriented compute design with significant resources dedicated to hardware scheduling to a more efficient, more gaming-oriented design (that still had its HPC-oriented parts in GK110). That saves quite a few transistors and power costs which previously didn't benefit games and allows them to be spent on gaming-oriented improvements.

Furthermore, moving from Kepler to Maxwell all-but eliminated FP64 compute capability and reallocated those costs into raw shader frequency and efficiency (therefore also FP32 compute improvements, which may actually be useful for games these days), an extremely efficient/beefy cache design, a massive increase in ROP throughput, and various other changes targeted purely at gaming and the consumer market. Unlike Fermi and likely the upcoming Pascal, Maxwell is not an HPC chip; it gained a lot of its improvements by Nvidia deliberately designing the architecture from the ground-up for consumer workloads (ex. games and some non-professional compute applications) and pretty much nothing else.

This means that Maxwell -> Pascal (a design that will, no doubt, go back to catering to HPC as well) is not analogous to Fermi -> Kepler and especially isn't analogous to Kepler -> Fermi. That's not to say Pascal won't be a big step up from Maxwell in gaming efficiency as well; the demands of newer games could shift to favoring Pascal's allocation of resources, but considering the process node shift is about the same as 40nm to 28nm in area scaling while GM200 is quite a bit bigger than GF110, transistor costs aren't decreasing, and Maxwell is a lean-and-mean gaming-oriented architecture in ways Fermi and even Kepler weren't... being a little skeptical of GP104's dominance might be warranted. It could happen, it's just not as likely to happen in my humble opinion.


I think it's even possible Nvidia deliberately kept the 980 Ti's GM200 somewhat cut-down and don't allow non-reference Titan X's specifically so the GTX 1080 or whatever they call it isn't quite as underwhelming as it might be against a fully unlocked, overclocked GM200.
Edited by Serandur - 1/27/16 at 1:31pm
Ice-nine
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6700K Asus Z170-DELUXE Gigabyte G1 GTX 980 Ti Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 850 Evo 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 RPM 2 TB Asus DVD Drive DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Phanteks PH-TC14PE 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 8.1 Pro AOC Q2770PQU Corsair K95 RGB - Cherry MX Blue EVGA Supernova G2 750W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 410 Gunmetal Edition Logitech G502 Proteus Core Razer Goliathus Speed Edition Small Cyber Acoustics Satellite CA-3602 
Audio
Oppo PM-3 Closed Back Planar Magnetic Headphones 
  hide details  
Ice-nine
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6700K Asus Z170-DELUXE Gigabyte G1 GTX 980 Ti Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Samsung 850 Evo 500 GB Seagate Barracuda 7200 RPM 2 TB Asus DVD Drive DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Phanteks PH-TC14PE 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 8.1 Pro AOC Q2770PQU Corsair K95 RGB - Cherry MX Blue EVGA Supernova G2 750W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 410 Gunmetal Edition Logitech G502 Proteus Core Razer Goliathus Speed Edition Small Cyber Acoustics Satellite CA-3602 
Audio
Oppo PM-3 Closed Back Planar Magnetic Headphones 
  hide details  
post #260 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphabet View Post

The obvious thing to me was that your statement was wrong. I'm sorry I corrected you and I'm not trying to drag this out but don't tell me it's obvious and you'll be more careful as if your statement wasn't wrong. You aren't doing me any favors, just yourself and other users who don't know the difference between a die shrink and manufacturing process shrink.

Regardless, I'm glad you know the difference and you might want to edit your post for the second to correct your wrongs instead of getting sassy with me.
Im pretty sure just about everyone understood his intent with the context perfectly. You seem to be the only one who is deeply upset by this.
Gaming
(17 items)
 
Gaming PC
(20 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7700K AS Rock Z170 OC Formula Titan X Pascal 2050MHz 64GB DDR4-3200 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
950 EVO m.2 OS drive 850 EVO 1TB games drive Intel 730 series 500GB games drive Custom water cooling 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 Pro x64 AMH A399U E-Element mechanical, black switches, Vortex b... EVGA G3 1kw 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Lian-Li PC-V1000L Redragon M901 LH Labs Pulse X Infinity DAC Custom built balanced tube amp with SS diamond ... 
Audio
MrSpeakers Alpha Prime 
  hide details  
Gaming
(17 items)
 
Gaming PC
(20 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7700K AS Rock Z170 OC Formula Titan X Pascal 2050MHz 64GB DDR4-3200 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
950 EVO m.2 OS drive 850 EVO 1TB games drive Intel 730 series 500GB games drive Custom water cooling 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 Pro x64 AMH A399U E-Element mechanical, black switches, Vortex b... EVGA G3 1kw 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Lian-Li PC-V1000L Redragon M901 LH Labs Pulse X Infinity DAC Custom built balanced tube amp with SS diamond ... 
Audio
MrSpeakers Alpha Prime 
  hide details  
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles
This thread is locked  
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [OC3D/TF] Pascal GP100 Titan coming as early as April and the GP104 GTX 1080/1070 to launch in June