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The Devil's Canyon is burning hot - Page 5

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

Next time I have my CPU out, I am going to take a photo of a pea on it to reference whenever someone says they used a "pea size" blob of TIM. If you are, that is a good eight time too much.
"Next time" I'm not holding my breath. tongue.gif
But your post does tingle my brain cells with an interesting though. I have a i7 980 setting here I could take some pics of a pea, a grain of rice, etc. on to give users an idea of how obsurd the use of a 'pea size' dob actually is.

But for now I will post this to show print and cooling comparisons. "Less is better" usually is the best approach.



Here is a drawing of how TIM is supposed to work vs how it is often used.
post #42 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

Yes, you have all of these factors in play. Then there is the whole spending money on teh delid tool, and ~$20 on Thermal Grizzly.....all in order to use $19.95 cooler.

This whole thing is nuts.

It is nuts. I'm not giving up on that old dusty cooler.

In all seriousness, I just want to see if I can get my cheap cooler to perform as well as a high end coolers. I was lucky the guy was willing to send the delid tool for free as long as I gave him feedback and a few tweets, and the grizzly is just for the die itself. I'm going through a lot of trouble to get at the die, might as well spend a few bucks to get it done right. I assume the liquid metal will work as well, or better than solder.

I'm expecting the delid tool to be here today or tomorrow, and the grizzly about the same time. In the meanwhile, I have a few ideas to improve my airflow. There isn't any way to get a cool air intake right in front of the cooler, so I will have to improvise a duct of sorts. I can also separate the air from the GPU and CPU with a divider, the GPU has its intake in the perfect spot already and exhausts from the back. Its cold in my computer room (its a converted garage with no heat) the temps when I woke up were in the 40's F but the sun is warming the building slowly.
post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenoden View Post

It is nuts. I'm not giving up on that old dusty cooler.

In all seriousness, I just want to see if I can get my cheap cooler to perform as well as a high end coolers. I was lucky the guy was willing to send the delid tool for free as long as I gave him feedback and a few tweets, and the grizzly is just for the die itself. I'm going through a lot of trouble to get at the die, might as well spend a few bucks to get it done right. I assume the liquid metal will work as well, or better than solder.

I'm expecting the delid tool to be here today or tomorrow, and the grizzly about the same time. In the meanwhile, I have a few ideas to improve my airflow. There isn't any way to get a cool air intake right in front of the cooler, so I will have to improvise a duct of sorts. I can also separate the air from the GPU and CPU with a divider, the GPU has its intake in the perfect spot already and exhausts from the back. Its cold in my computer room (its a converted garage with no heat) the temps when I woke up were in the 40's F but the sun is warming the building slowly.
In all seriousness?? You must be joking.
There is no way your 212 can perform anywhere close to the performance a high end cooler has.
All you need to do to understand why it's not possible is put a high end cooler along side your 212.
The differences are obvious
Size,
Number of heatpipes,
Number of fins
Size of fins
Size of fans
Quality of construction.
Quality of mount

There are many ways to improve airflow and separate heated air from cool air. You just named several.

A remote sensored thermometer like I suggest in my guides is highly recommended. Trying to get cooler air to cooler without knowing the air temperatures involved is like playing baseball in the dark. You will be swinging the bat until you fall down exhausted and probably never hit the ball. biggrin.gif
post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 
@doyll

Any wanker might over pay for "muh high end cooler" then slap it in without putting an ounce of thought into what type and how much TIM to use, how the cooler is mounted, the efficiency of the case airflow etc. Sure they get alright temps because the cooler is nice, but my goal is to get that same kind of "nice" cooling with the H212+ just because as many factors as possible have been accounted for and optimized to the best of my ability. And if I go for the overclock, I'd laugh my ass off if I got a stable OC at 4.7 to 5.0GHz with a Hyper 212 cooler, simply because the odds are stacked so high. biggrin.gif

Thanks for all the cooling tips so far gentlemen. I should have some good tests to post up soon-ish.
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenoden View Post

@doyll

Any wanker might over pay for "muh high end cooler" then slap it in without putting an ounce of thought into what type and how much TIM to use, how the cooler is mounted, the efficiency of the case airflow etc. Sure they get alright temps because the cooler is nice, but my goal is to get that same kind of "nice" cooling with the H212+ just because as many factors as possible have been accounted for and optimized to the best of my ability. And if I go for the overclock, I'd laugh my ass off if I got a stable OC at 4.7 to 5.0GHz with a Hyper 212 cooler, simply because the odds are stacked so high. biggrin.gif

Thanks for all the cooling tips so far gentlemen. I should have some good tests to post up soon-ish.
Problem is many of us are not 'wankers' and do get good airflow in our cases and don't use too much TIM. I can understand your goals, but spending money on TIM is really 'wanker' mentality. tongue.gif A very good cooler can be had for $50 or less. It doesn't take but a couple three tubes of expensive TIM to match that. Add in a few good fans and your 'wanker' route becomes more expensive and CPU is still hot. There are a few videos of a highly modified street sedan, a expensive sports car and a F1 car makeing one lap around road race course. They start the sedan first wait over a minitue and start the sports car, want almost 2 minutes and start the F1. Want to guess which one reaches the finish line first. biggrin.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5mRiY6Hmhc.
post #46 of 56
On the note of stability, I'd argue that if you want to be sure of stability (ex: not just "game stable"), you gotta run the most stringent tests (like Linpak). The reason is because the CPU has got to be able to execute any code it can without error.

I'd argue the following should be the standard
  • At least a hour of Intel Burn Test at maximum RAM (most stringent test for cores)
  • At least 12 hours of Prime95 LargeFFTs (tests uncore and MCH)
  • At least 200% coverage with HCI Memtest (test for RAM stability)

It does make your CPU hot, but if you want assurance of stability, there isn't any other way. x264 and similar tests just don't have the power to really stress the core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post

I've seen a lot of delidding suggestion. I currently use my 4790k with a Noctua NH-D14. The cpu hasn't seen 80C at 4.9GHz. I might be lucky but keep in mind that the maximal temperature varies with the stress test you are using.
I use LinX and I think it is perfectly fine. I noticed that the voltage needed beyond 4.5-4.6GHz skyrocket.

Here are few reasons why I advice you not to delid:
1- You lose your warranty (duh).
2- CPU loses value on the used market.
3- Lower temperature has virtually no effect on performance. You might be able to get 100-200 extra MHz out of it. I really don't think it is worth losing 1 & 2.
4- You risk to brick the CPU (even if the probability is quite small).

A better cooler is the first thing I would look for.
I would stay away from AIO (all-in-one) liquid coolers. You can get high-end coolers like the Noctua D15 for the same price with similar performance and no risk of having a dead pump or a leaking unit.
My Noctua NH-D14 has been in service since 2009. I seriously doubt a lot of AIO liquid cooler can have such a long life. Sooner or later it will die.

1. It depends on your risk tolerance. I've seen the Delta between delidding and not delidding to be as high as 20-30C on some CPUs (the 4770K in particular tended to run very hot indeed). Devil's Canyon doesn't see as big gains with delidding, but you can still see as much as 10-20C if you delid.

2. Lower resale value from delid is not always true. I have found that often, many used delidded 3770Ks demand a premium on the used market. I think it's because the delidded has assumed the risk of the delidding process, while you as the buyer enjoy the benefits.

3. Lower temperature will yield a couple of hundred Mhz, and may stop throttling. The chips that are on the upper edge - 30C cooler with a delid will probably see quite a big gain. The chips that have been running cool already though won't see as many gains.

4. Agree with this.


You got lucky with your CPU if you can do LinX at 80C at 4.9 GHz. I just wish that Intel would swap over to the solder for the enthusiast series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frozenoden View Post

@doyll

Any wanker might over pay for "muh high end cooler" then slap it in without putting an ounce of thought into what type and how much TIM to use, how the cooler is mounted, the efficiency of the case airflow etc. Sure they get alright temps because the cooler is nice, but my goal is to get that same kind of "nice" cooling with the H212+ just because as many factors as possible have been accounted for and optimized to the best of my ability. And if I go for the overclock, I'd laugh my ass off if I got a stable OC at 4.7 to 5.0GHz with a Hyper 212 cooler, simply because the odds are stacked so high. biggrin.gif

Thanks for all the cooling tips so far gentlemen. I should have some good tests to post up soon-ish.

A higher end cooler will still do better than a lower end cooler, all other things being equal. It's a matter of surface area, heatpipes, etc.

The main reason why people delid is because of the glue that Intel uses. It increases the distance from the core to the die, which increases temperatures. While delidding will resolve that, you still want a high end cooler if you want to max out your OC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by electro2u View Post

Direct die does not gain very much at all. Not like delidding.

Agree. Bear die only gets you a couple of degrees and carries a lot of risk - you can crack the die pretty easily. Delidding gets you a much bigger gain. In some cases, I have heard of people getting higher temps with bare die.

The heatspreader or core is there for a few reasons:
  • Spreads out the heat from the die (remember dies have been getting smaller), as the name "heat spreader" implies. That's important as the die gets smaller because the outer heatpipes don't get as much contact.
  • Prevents damage from heatsinks, especially as they've gotten bigger and clamping pressure has gone up
  • The move to LGA style mounting (needed for the higher pin density) has recessed the die somewhat, so you have to have a heatsink
  • It makes it easier to install to, as excessive care is not needed to prevent the die from cracking

It is especially important for the small dies, because a huge heatsink cannot get the heat to the outer dies (one of the reasons why direct contact heatsinks have not done very well compared to the base plate to heatpipe designs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Xeb View Post

If that was my chip I would be willing to push it a little more. Toasty, but nothing ti be afraid of. What kills a chip is the voltage, not the heat.

Agree.

@OP
You could probably push to up to 1.35V for 24-7 - maybe stay at 1.3 V to be safe, and keep the VCCIN/VRIN under 2V.
Edited by CrazyElf - 2/6/16 at 12:53pm
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post #47 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

On the note of stability, I'd argue that if you want to be sure of stability (ex: not just "game stable"), you gotta run the most stringent tests (like Linpak). The reason is because the CPU has got to be able to execute any code it can without error.

I'd argue the following should be the standard
  • At least a hour of Intel Burn Test at maximum RAM (most stringent test for cores)
  • At least 12 hours of Prime95 LargeFFTs (tests uncore and MCH)
  • At least 200% coverage with HCI Memtest (test for RAM stability)
I understand and agree to a degree to what you said above. But if the user's maximum load is only 50% of the load Prime95 or whatever is, there is no reason to limit the overclock to cooling to what it an do when running Prime,

I think of it like a race engine that can turn 8000rpm at say 600hp, but if it does it will overheat in 10 minutes as well as it is wearing out so fast it needs rebuilt after about an hour. But this same engine running at 6000rpm and 500hp will never overhead and last for 200 hours before needing to be rebuilt.

Hope that makes sense.
post #48 of 56
what it comes down to is this...

factors that affect cooling

mass = thermal capacity.
surface area = thermal dissipation efficiency.
fan performance = thermal dissipation capacity
heatpipe quality = thermal transfer efficiency
TIM = thermal conductivity between heat source and heat sink.

it's an unfortunate fact that hyper212 is a budget cooler and does not excel at ANY of the criteria listed above... hyper 212 is a good cooler FOR ITS PRICE RANGE. but it's not going to hold a candle to a high performance cooler that cost twice as much... the 212 uses mesh pipes, and high performance coolers use sintered pipes. the 212 does not use solder in its construction while high performance pipes uses soldered construction. the mass as well as the surface area of the 212 is at best 2/3 of the weight and surface area of a high performance cooler.... the list goes on...

it's not the 212's fault that it's cheaply made. it's engineered to service the budget market. it's one of the best performer for a VERY long time in that market segment. but that's not to say you can treat it as a high end cooler just because it's a good performer at the budget range because it simply does not have the same construction of the high end coolers.
post #49 of 56
Thread Starter 
The delid was a success, I'm using Cool Labs Liquid Pro on the die. I wanted to test it and compare to grizzly when it gets here. I'm logging RealTemp to a .csv file to compare performance.



So far the tests (P95 SmallFFT) are about 10C cooler and no other modifications have been made to my case (still open with a single CPU fan) Keep in mind I've only run P95 for no more than 30 minutes or so at a time to get a feel for the temps. It is also worth noting the temps in my computer room are 20C.



I will take the next couple days to mod my cooling solution a little more, I want to lap the IHS and slap the second fan on the cooler for PnP on the fins. That might be the next biggest improvement since my heat transfer from the die to the heat sink seems about maximized, next is dissipation and airflow.

Though it won't outrun the sports car or F1, there's something about having the coolest "modified sedan" on the block.
post #50 of 56
Question on he delis process is it possible to have the heat spreader glued back in place. I wouldn't mind to delid but I don't like the fact he heat spreader is just held in by the gpu mount.
    
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