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Cooling techniques in highly restrictive/silent cases + H440 New Edition Review. - Page 2

post #11 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

1) The cooler and flow directs are valid points. Sorry, the unbalancing thing is .. well .. unbalanced. tongue.gif

Perhaps a mite far-fetched, but it's not unheard of for fans to become unbalanced. smile.gif Used to be that just sticking on a label asymmetrically could use the fan to become unbalanced. It's all hydraulics now (on the good fans, of course); but still: I don't think it's s real good idea to blow air from, say, the top right side, directly onto the CPU fan, whist also having your regular, 'linear' flow (from fore to aft). Anyway, probably not the biggest issue. smile.gif
Quote:
Motherboard orientation with rear connections using air cooling means front to back airflow is best. Cases with top vents are somewhere between total waste and just plain stupid!. The cause front to back airflow to move upward, which means heated exhaust off of GPU moves up around CPU cooler. Not a good idea.

I think placing 1 top exhaust-fan, to the outermost left position (nearest to the rear exit), is probably okay, flow-wise.

As for GPU, ideally your card takes it all outside the back itself, of course; but, naturally, the card will still get warm.
Quote:
Ideally we want nothing but front to back airflow with back having as much or more vent area than front. Only real exception is maybe bottom intake flow directly toward GPU intakes and maybe the back top vent helping flow heat air out of case.

1 strategically placed bottom-fan (plus maybe a more-or-less oppositely placed top exhaust fan) might be a consideration too, for when you have a (very hot) 950 Pro SSD or something, that could greatly benefit from having a fan blow over it. That bottom-fan air should, ideally, pass the 950 Pro (mine is seated on PX1 wings, in a PCIex4 slot), and be largely taken in by the video-card intake (typically facing down).

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the matter!
post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by meimeiriver View Post

Perhaps a mite far-fetched, but it's not unheard of for fans to become unbalanced. smile.gif Used to be that just sticking on a label asymmetrically could use the fan to become unbalanced. It's all hydraulics now (on the good fans, of course); but still: I don't think it's s real good idea to blow air from, say, the top right side, directly onto the CPU fan, whist also having your regular, 'linear' flow (from fore to aft). Anyway, probably not the biggest issue. smile.gif
I think placing 1 top exhaust-fan, to the outermost left position (nearest to the rear exit), is probably okay, flow-wise.

As for GPU, ideally your card takes it all outside the back itself, of course; but, naturally, the card will still get warm.
1 strategically placed bottom-fan (plus maybe a more-or-less oppositely placed top exhaust fan) might be a consideration too, for when you have a (very hot) 950 Pro SSD or something, that could greatly benefit from having a fan blow over it. That bottom-fan air should, ideally, pass the 950 Pro (mine is seated on PX1 wings, in a PCIex4 slot), and be largely taken in by the video-card intake (typically facing down).

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on the matter!
No, fans do not become 'unbalanced.' Well, they can if weight is added / removed from them. But airflow will not change their balance. 999/1000 times a fan 'becomes unbalanced' is because something (dirt) collects on the blades unevenly or something causes a blade to break off. Loosing a blade definitely unbalances a fan. biggrin.gif Sometimes a fan develops bearing noise and vibration increases to noticeable level, but that imbalance was there all along .. and most likely what caused the bearing to prematurely wear and start making noise and increase the vibrato to noticeable levels.

I do not understand your 'It's all hydraulics now' is all about. Cross-directional airflow causes problems. Resulting turbulence can create fan vibrations, but this is not fan balance. Balance is fixed weight .. and often causes vibration. But other things can cause vibrations. wink.gif

While farthest back top vent can use a fan, it generally makes little to no difference .. and sometimes even hinders airflow 'from fore to aft' as you worded it. tongue.gifNever thought of a case as a boat before

At a guess 1 in 5 GPUs is reference design with a blower fan pushing air 'fore to aft' over the GPU PCB.
The other 4 of 5 GPUs pull air in fan side and dump heated exhaust air in all directions when it hits the PCB.
This is one of my biggest complaints about modern GPUs that generate more heat then CPUs but have absolutely no thought given to keeping their heated exhaust airflow away from their cool intake airflow. mad.gif
They are like downflow CPU coolers .. no worse.
Tower CPU coolers work with case airflow
Downflow CPU coolers and GPU coolers are just 'air mixers' mad.gif

1 strategically placed bottom-fan (plus maybe a more-or-less oppositely placed top exhaust fan) might be a consideration
Smooth airflow is key. Trying to flow bottom to top in a front to back case will most likely create turbulence .. or best case it would change case airflow from 'front to back' to 'lower front to upper back' .. which sometimes works .. as long as it does not flow warm GPU air in front of CPU cooler intake.

Edit: It is obvious you have knowledge and the abiltiy to think logically and rationally. thumb.gif
post #13 of 29
Thread Starter 
Hello guys,

Now it is my time to prove you guys wrong. What you are missing here is the intended fan RPM and with it - the air flow and pressure. tongue.gif

"1) When you're pressing down (intake) air from the top, so close to the CPU air cooler (with a typical right-to-left fan flow direction, aren't you going to create a flow interference, causing your CPU fans to become unbalanced? (Over time)"

Skipping the unbalanced part. No, it wont. They are pretty far away for the air they push at 800 RPM. They each move 37 m3/h at 0.3 mm pressure in open air. They pull through filters and a very restrictive top, so they bring even less air in. The moment they reach the cooler - the air force is much weaker than the triple Ty-147A running at my idle 470 RPM. The distance of approx 7 cm is pretty big for silent fans running at that speed. The air from them gets sucked in right through. My smoke tests confirmed this.


"2) By pressing down the top-intake air, aren't you effectively pushing away the air again that was just about to be exhausted?!"

Now - there are 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM on top, 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM in the front and there are 3 TY-147A which are unrestricted in the case.

I made the following tests:
// all be quiet! fans at 800 RPM, TY fans locked at 470 RPM

All fans on at idle - CPU 65 C
Only front fans on - CPU 73 C
Only top fans on - 67 C
No case fans on - 75+ C (test aborted)

On both points - I would have agreed if I was running fans in the range of 1500 RPM for the 12 cm ones and 1000+ for the 14 cm ones - then you have a pretty violent situation inside your case. But sorry, at this low speeds - the case restriction is the main factor. Air needs force to be pushed - and it is never pushed in a straight line or at an infinite distance.

As a cooling enthusiast - I am never interested in extreme RPMs or mega cooling. I judge fans by their performance at their lowest speeds. thumb.gif
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post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneiky View Post

Hello guys,

Now it is my time to prove you guys wrong. What you are missing here is the intended fan RPM and with it - the air flow and pressure. tongue.gif

"1) When you're pressing down (intake) air from the top, so close to the CPU air cooler (with a typical right-to-left fan flow direction, aren't you going to create a flow interference, causing your CPU fans to become unbalanced? (Over time)"

Skipping the unbalanced part. No, it wont. They are pretty far away for the air they push at 800 RPM. They each move 37 m3/h at 0.3 mm pressure in open air. They pull through filters and a very restrictive top, so they bring even less air in. The moment they reach the cooler - the air force is much weaker than the triple Ty-147A running at my idle 470 RPM. The distance of approx 7 cm is pretty big for silent fans running at that speed. The air from them gets sucked in right through. My smoke tests confirmed this.


"2) By pressing down the top-intake air, aren't you effectively pushing away the air again that was just about to be exhausted?!"

Now - there are 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM on top, 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM in the front and there are 3 TY-147A which are unrestricted in the case.

I made the following tests:
// all be quiet! fans at 800 RPM, TY fans locked at 470 RPM

All fans on at idle - CPU 65 C
Only front fans on - CPU 73 C
Only top fans on - 67 C
No case fans on - 75+ C (test aborted)

On both points - I would have agreed if I was running fans in the range of 1500 RPM for the 12 cm ones and 1000+ for the 14 cm ones - then you have a pretty violent situation inside your case. But sorry, at this low speeds - the case restriction is the main factor. Air needs force to be pushed - and it is never pushed in a straight line or at an infinite distance.

As a cooling enthusiast - I am never interested in extreme RPMs or mega cooling. I judge fans by their performance at their lowest speeds. thumb.gif
Answers to both 1 and 2 are yes.

Your component temps with different fans running is not as simple. Changing what fans are running and what their speed is tends to change the paths the air is flowing through the case. When we change the paths the air is flowing we also tend change the temperature of air going into component intakes, and every degree change in temperature going too an air cooler means basically a degree different the compent temp will be.

When I am trying to setup / optimize case airflow I always use remote sensor thermometers with probe positioned in airlfow path in front of coolers (both CPU and GPU). 5th post in 'Ways to Better Cooling" explains what I use and it all works. Link in my sig.
post #15 of 29
Thread Starter 
doyll, we had that discussion many times already. tongue.gif

Matter of fact is - this computer is running at this configuration for 99.99% of its up-time. And it just works. The system did not change this fans speeds in over 3 months (when I was just stress testing). I am not saying you are not making valid points - I am just saying that this configuration will most likely work with this fans, at this speeds for the rest of its life.
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post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneiky View Post

doyll, we had that discussion many times already. tongue.gif

Matter of fact is - this computer is running at this configuration for 99.99% of its up-time. And it just works. The system did not change this fans speeds in over 3 months (when I was just stress testing). I am not saying you are not making valid points - I am just saying that this configuration will most likely work with this fans, at this speeds for the rest of its life.
I'm only pointing it out so others don't thing just because it's working for you it will work for them. thumb.gif
Airflow is a fickled witch who often does things that we do not predict or expect. tongue.gif
post #17 of 29
Thread Starter 
I do agree. Should have put it as a disclaimer.

This machine stays in this state even when rendering. The only way to push it beyond these fan speeds is via stress test. Since I recently moved in another country and now I am in a room approx. 4x5 I have the computer rendering while I sleep. If it works in my most demanding tasks at this noise level - I completed my mission. Also in the beginning I pointed out that my goal was to make a super silent CPU based workstation. thumb.gif
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post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneiky View Post

Hello guys,

Now it is my time to prove you guys wrong. What you are missing here is the intended fan RPM and with it - the air flow and pressure. tongue.gif

"1) When you're pressing down (intake) air from the top, so close to the CPU air cooler (with a typical right-to-left fan flow direction, aren't you going to create a flow interference, causing your CPU fans to become unbalanced? (Over time)"

Skipping the unbalanced part. No, it wont. They are pretty far away for the air they push at 800 RPM. They each move 37 m3/h at 0.3 mm pressure in open air. They pull through filters and a very restrictive top, so they bring even less air in. The moment they reach the cooler - the air force is much weaker than the triple Ty-147A running at my idle 470 RPM. The distance of approx 7 cm is pretty big for silent fans running at that speed. The air from them gets sucked in right through. My smoke tests confirmed this.

For someone 'Skipping the unbalanced part,' you did a helluva good job explaning it, after all. smile.gif
Quote:
"2) By pressing down the top-intake air, aren't you effectively pushing away the air again that was just about to be exhausted?!"

Now - there are 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM on top, 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM in the front and there are 3 TY-147A which are unrestricted in the case.

I made the following tests:
// all be quiet! fans at 800 RPM, TY fans locked at 470 RPM

All fans on at idle - CPU 65 C
Only front fans on - CPU 73 C
Only top fans on - 67 C
No case fans on - 75+ C (test aborted)

On both points - I would have agreed if I was running fans in the range of 1500 RPM for the 12 cm ones and 1000+ for the 14 cm ones - then you have a pretty violent situation inside your case. But sorry, at this low speeds - the case restriction is the main factor. Air needs force to be pushed - and it is never pushed in a straight line or at an infinite distance.

As a cooling enthusiast - I am never interested in extreme RPMs or mega cooling. I judge fans by their performance at their lowest speeds. thumb.gif

I did not consider the very low (800 RPMs in your case). You made a good, erm, case. thumb.gif
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shneiky View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Hello guys,

Now it is my time to prove you guys wrong. What you are missing here is the intended fan RPM and with it - the air flow and pressure. tongue.gif

"1) When you're pressing down (intake) air from the top, so close to the CPU air cooler (with a typical right-to-left fan flow direction, aren't you going to create a flow interference, ca
using your CPU fans to become unbalanced? (Over time)"
Skipping the unbalanced part. No, it wont. They are pretty far away for the air they push at 800 RPM. They each move 37 m3/h at 0.3 mm pressure in open air. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
They pull through filters and a very restrictive top, so they bring even less air in. The moment they reach the cooler - the air force is much weaker than the triple Ty-147A running at my idle 470 RPM. The distance of approx 7 cm is pretty big for silent fans running at that speed. The air from them gets sucked in right through. My smoke tests confirmed this.


"2) By pressing down the top-intake air, aren't you effectively pushing away the air again that was just about to be exhausted?!"

Now - there are 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM on top, 3 heavily restricted be quiet! fans running at 800 RPM in the front and there are 3 TY-147A which are unrestricted in the case.

I made the following tests:
// all be quiet! fans at 800 RPM, TY fans locked at 470 RPM

All fans on at idle - CPU 65 C
Only front fans on - CPU 73 C
Only top fans on - 67 C
No case fans on - 75+ C (test aborted)

On both points - I would have agreed if I was running fans in the range of 1500 RPM for the 12 cm ones and 1000+ for the 14 cm ones - then you have a pretty violent situation inside your case. But sorry, at this low speeds - the case restriction is the main factor. Air needs force to be pushed - and it is never pushed in a straight line or at an infinite distance.

As a cooling enthusiast - I am never interested in extreme RPMs or mega cooling. I judge fans by their performance at their lowest speeds. :thumb
:
Not sure what fan you are referring to, but if those are fan's specifications I think you may be misinterpreting them.
There is no pressure differential in open air flow. tongue.gif
Fan specification ratings are flow with no resistance (free airflow)
and static pressure

Static pressure is the pressure difference between the air in front of fan intake and behind the fan exhaust when the fan reaches the point it can no longer make air flow against the resistance .. the air stops (becomes static) and the pressure it is making at this time is it's static pressure rating.


37 m3/h and 0.3 mm H2O is not 37 m3/h at 0.3 mm H2O
It is 37 m3/h (21.8 cfm) in free air, as in absolutely no resistance,
and 0.3 mm H2O is the maximum pressure the fan is pushing when airflow stops.
post #20 of 29
Thread Starter 
By open air I did not mean literally open air. I wanted to say unobstructed and used "open air" figuratively. English is not my first language so sometimes I use combination of words from the logic of another language which do not really convey the information properly. tongue.gif
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