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[WCCF]Intel Might be Forcing Ban on Non-K OC Feature on Skylake Motherboards – Updated BIOS Rolling Out Soon - Page 20

post #191 of 340
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Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

already there . cant run my hd4850s in crossfire on win 10. ask for help and get called stupid for using old hardware, even if it fits all your needs.

Amd dropped support for the 4xxx long ago and you can't really be upset about that. We're essentially 7 years from their release at this point. If it worked in 8.1 then stick with that. Don't expect gear that old to work on new software.
     
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post #192 of 340
I think they dropped suppord for 5xxx and 6xxx too.
post #193 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klocek001 View Post

I think they dropped suppord for 5xxx and 6xxx too.

Yeah, I think around November or December last year.

Actually, they appear to be on legacy support.

AMD Radeon™ Software Support for Legacy Graphics Products

The most recent one was the "Crimson Edition 16.1.1 Beta" which released on the 4th of February 2016.

There was also a thread about this: [AMD] [Updated] AMD transitions HD 6000 and 5000 series to legacy support
Edited by TopicClocker - 2/6/16 at 7:44am
post #194 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

I've always been in the "Companies can do what they want with the things they make" group because I've also been in the "If you don't like it, don't buy it" group.

I find it very interesting how the same people who want OCable i3s so so badly wont consider a 6300, an Athlon, or even an APU if they want that iGPU. The gap isn't that great when only one side can OC, and the price gap isn't that big for i5/i7 K/non.

"This is what happens when AMD can't compete" they say.
"Blame AMD" they say.
"AMD is going bankrupt" they say.

So many elitists (including myself) saying it's fine that Intel does this. So many more overly-entitled people thinking their complaints will do anything about it that will sooner complain and then deal with it anyway than stop supporting them. And none of them will move from Intel despite all their complaints to give AMD the money they need, to vote with their wallets and show Intel this is unacceptable to them.

And while we're blaming people, the motherboard makers should not have advertised an unsupported feature that they knew was not intentional. This is not the first non-K OC "bug" in the last 3 years, and the others got shut down too, they should have known better. So should everyone here.

You lose the iGPU when you OC a non-k processor with a modified BIOS.
Furthermore, core for core, Intel processors surpass AMD. Alas, this is true and I've recently upgraded my mum's computer from an AMD APU to a i3-6100.


And I disagree with you on the subject of motherboards - in old, pre-Sandy, uArchs where the PCI were on a separate bus (just like Skylake is again), you could BCLK OC as much as you wanted to.
Locked processors meant locked multipliers.

This is an entirely artificial limitation intended to serve as nothing but an introduction to an even more segmented market where diminishing returns for higher-binned components are present at the entry price point and grow steeper and steeper as you step up towards more powerful chips.

Pre-Sandy is not in the last 3 years. This exact situation happened to Haswell too.

The rest is irrelevant. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooshna View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

I've always been in the "Companies can do what they want with the things they make" group because I've also been in the "If you don't like it, don't buy it" group.

I find it very interesting how the same people who want OCable i3s so so badly wont consider a 6300, an Athlon, or even an APU if they want that iGPU. The gap isn't that great when only one side can OC, and the price gap isn't that big for i5/i7 K/non.

"This is what happens when AMD can't compete" they say.
"Blame AMD" they say.
"AMD is going bankrupt" they say.

So many elitists (including myself) saying it's fine that Intel does this. So many more overly-entitled people thinking their complaints will do anything about it that will sooner complain and then deal with it anyway than stop supporting them. And none of them will move from Intel despite all their complaints to give AMD the money they need, to vote with their wallets and show Intel this is unacceptable to them.

And while we're blaming people, the motherboard makers should not have advertised an unsupported feature that they knew was not intentional. This is not the first non-K OC "bug" in the last 3 years, and the others got shut down too, they should have known better. So should everyone here.

i get that your in the "companies can do whatever they want with their products" and "if you don't like it don't buy it" but i'm in the "I can do whatever i want with the things i buy" group. What next the company that made the steel that is used in the machine that makes the cpu tells intel they can't make wafers 1-2 mm thick anymore they have to be 4mm thick because they never agreed that the steel was to make cpus? come on the way people defend companies on OCN is just...... on another level.

When i joined OCN i joined because it was overclock.net, A group of people who's purpose was to share and help each other get the most out of their parts. like custom built rads from fish pumps, motorcycle radiators, tubing from home depot or you know liquid nitrogen cooling. It didn't matter if it was a $35 dollar cpu or a $2k cpu. It didn't matter if it was an enthusiast gpu or a entry level one. Didn't matter if it said "2.3ghz" we would push past all that.

I was 50/50 on a skylake build or wait for zen but now i'm just going to wait for zen. I don't feel like supporting a company that is going to force me to buy a higher end chip with a higher end motherboard. What next they won't allow you to overclock unless you pay for $1k memory modules? or only overclock if you buy a psu with 2000watts at 99% efficiency?

They have the ability to limit chips how they want to, that is their prerogative as the creator of the device. Are you also mad that the hex-core Haswell-Es are laser'd and you can not unlock the cores, no matter how stable they may be? How about all the instruction sets Intel disables on lower end parts and even the K-series? They chose to do this. They can not punish you for finding a way around it, they can just try to patch the hole you found. As a result, our two philosophies are NOT mutually exclusive. You just have to work harder for it.

Interestingly, during the times you are talking about, it was actually harder to get around than this is. Your "good ol' days" makes no sense.

Thankfully, PSUs do not identify themselves in any fashion to the system at large at the UEFI layer. Try to keep it realistic. As for RAM, you actually can't OC the RAM without having a K-series either, so that has already been implemented to an extent. Otherwise, as Intel doesn't make RAM, they don't care. The overall from this final senetence though is that you ARE voting with your wallet, which is the only way to make anyone care. That's good. Now you just need to hang on to that mentality until Zen drops which will be a nice long time from now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keikei View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wooshna View Post

i get that your in the "companies can do whatever they want with their products" and "if you don't like it don't buy it" but i'm in the "I can do whatever i want with the things i buy" group. What next the company that made the steel that is used in the machine that makes the cpu tells intel they can't make wafers 1-2 mm thick anymore they have to be 4mm thick because they never agreed that the steel was to make cpus? come on the way people defend companies on OCN is just...... on another level.

When i joined OCN i joined because it was overclock.net, A group of people who's purpose was to share and help each other get the most out of their parts. like custom built rads from fish pumps, motorcycle radiators, tubing from home depot or you know liquid nitrogen cooling. It didn't matter if it was a $35 dollar cpu or a $2k cpu. It didn't matter if it was an enthusiast gpu or a entry level one. Didn't matter if it said "2.3ghz" we would push past all that.

I was 50/50 on a skylake build or wait for zen but now i'm just going to wait for zen. I don't feel like supporting a company that is going to force me to buy a higher end chip with a higher end motherboard. What next they won't allow you to overclock unless you pay for $1k memory modules? or only overclock if you buy a psu with 2000watts at 99% efficiency?

If you support a companies product by buying them, then you also support their actions. I'll be taking a very close look at zen as well.

Exactly. Complaining and buying another chip they make says "I guess I don't care what you do all that much, I still want it".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanLoco View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRabbit View Post

Thats what people dont get in this topic. Intel has every right to do this, no matter what you think or believe. They sold you a chip that shouldn't be OC'd. You want to OC? Buy an K series.

"Oh it used to be..."

And the grass was greener and sky bluer.
I'm really not sure how Intel has "every right" to tell mobo manufacturers what to do?

Intel's BIOS spec that the MB makers agreed to, if they run outside of spec, Intel can chose to not support them.

Intel's chip-set on the boards. If they make Intel mad enough, they can stop supplying them with parts.

Intel's CPU Microcode that runs the thing in the first place, which the BIOS is exploiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by p4inkill3r View Post

Might (and an army of lawyers) makes right, and there's no way that ASRock is going to do anything over than knuckle under when Intel tells them to do something.

I was thinking more of society as a whole. And I don't see a widespread enough movement to overhaul IP/Patents yet. Unlucky. Maybe sometime!

I just don't like declaring winners in a 'right or wrong' question, based on some basic understanding of current law. Again, nothing practical. For all practical purposes, voting with wallet should do the job.

(edit: Pointing out that they probably have a legal entitlement to do this is perfectly fine of course. But we all know that anyhow. Discussing the merits of this entitlement requires a little more depth than we all care to give this here, probably. I think a lot of it is warranted, myself, anyhow.)

You can think that all you want, but at the end of the day you can not tell me how to make products I sell. You are not a shareholder, I am not licencing things from you, and we never made any kind of deal. You do not have a say. End of story.

Your only power is you can chose to not buy them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoodz View Post

The enthusiast need to stand up and refuse to buy any non-overclocking chip. Period. Watch how fast they change their stance.

For the most part, Enthusiasts do not buy non-overclocking parts. Dell, HP, Lenovo, THEY buy non-overclocking parts, and frankly each of them sells thousands of times more PCs than the overclocking community as a whole does.

And if you pay more for their overclocking parts instead, they win, you fell in place and paid them more money like they wanted you to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpenguinxx View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by akromatic View Post

its called x79 and x99

You're still limited OCing in the same way on those platforms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoodz View Post

The enthusiast need to stand up and refuse to buy any non-overclocking chip. Period. Watch how fast they change their stance.

Or just not buy the latest CPUs since there's hardly any improvement performance wise.

My 5960X running with a 125 BCLK 24/7 says you don't know what you're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

I understand the disappointment, but to ask why? Non K CPU were bought locked and really one should expect that it stay that way. They never supported this feature officially.

Doesn't mean you should limit people's freedoms, it's not a subscription service it's money tendered for a physical product. you should be able to do what ever you want to it. and on that note i'm sure hacked bioses will be made.

You can do whatever you want.

But they can do whatever they want to try and prevent you as well. You seems to think this is a one-way street, and it isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shredded View Post

How dare we do what we want with things we have paid for and own!
Shame on the overclockers!

It's like if car manufacturers were to stop people and businesses from making/selling after market parts to make them faster...

I swear, you'd think all of you have some high standing in Intel or something. You don't. You can do whatever you want, but so can Intel. You have no say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jomama22 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

already there . cant run my hd4850s in crossfire on win 10. ask for help and get called stupid for using old hardware, even if it fits all your needs.

Amd dropped support for the 4xxx long ago and you can't really be upset about that. We're essentially 7 years from their release at this point. If it worked in 8.1 then stick with that. Don't expect gear that old to work on new software.

Is there even a driver where the 4000-series isn't considered legacy on Win10? 5000 and 6000 have the Crimson Beta and a few from before it, but I think 4000 has been deemed legacy for too long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopicClocker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klocek001 View Post

I think they dropped suppord for 5xxx and 6xxx too.

Yeah, I think around November or December last year.

Yup, Crimson's Beta was the last non-legacy driver for them.
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post #195 of 340
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopicClocker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post

already there . cant run my hd4850s in crossfire on win 10. ask for help and get called stupid for using old hardware, even if it fits all your needs.

That's weird, why can't you run your 4850s in crossfire on Windows 10? Is it because AMD dropped driver support a few years ago?
The way how you worded it, it must have been working on Windows 7 or 8, so it's quite odd that it doesn't work under the new OS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Radnad View Post

I bit the bullet a couple of weeks ago and decided to go this route with a budget ASRock board and i5 6400. Needless to say I am disappointed with intel's decision, even though I can understand their decision to patch a bug that was exploited, but it leaves me in a big hole as a budget builder.

This was discovered way back in the beginning of December when I first heard about it, you would have thought intel would have put the hammer down immediately instead of letting the word get out and the mobo manufacturers ramp up the marketing, this is most disappointing of all. How many other users are in the same situation now as I am with a parts list that they can't use to their expectations. If intel would have clamped down on it right away and the marketing hype been quelled from the start, then we could have waited until the cost of K's came down to a level that fits our budget.

I don't believe I'm "entitled" to anything, and that word has been thrown around way too much here, but the fact is the marketing was full bore by January and many users bought based on that marketing, and intel IS to blame for letting it get to that level in the first place. I would love see how all the "entitlement" throwers would react if they're told at the walmart register that rollback price you thought you were getting just got revoked right before the item was scanned...


That's what I was thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopicClocker View Post

This is a real shame, I thought that they would have gotten the go ahead from Intel to allow overclocking on non K CPUs?


It's been possible for a couple of months, were Intel completely oblivious to this? First it started with one manufacturer and then it grew to loads more.
They couldn't have been completely unaware of this?

Another thing I was wondering at the time was, did the manufacturers get the go ahead from Intel to do this? I questioned this since alot of them had the feature to overclock non K processors and it's also been going on for a couple of months.

I guess that's not the case now, which is rather unfortunate.

This really makes me wonder if intel saw something during the holiday and new year sales trends that scared them, or were all the intel execs on sabbatical for couple of months for the holidays and then came back after in the new year and were like, "Whoa, WTH is this??"
 
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post #196 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radnad View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

This really makes me wonder if intel saw something during the holiday and new year sales trends that scared them, or were all the intel execs on sabbatical for couple of months for the holidays and then came back after in the new year and were like, "Whoa, WTH is this??"

Hmm, well it seems that non K overclocking kicked off around early December, the first time I heard about it was from this thread: http://www.overclock.net/t/1582569/hwbot-dhenzjhen-unlocks-bclk-on-retail-skylake-core-i3-6320-at-4-6ghz

It's quite possible that non K overclocking was possible a few days before too. However, the time period from the date of that article to today was 2 months and 4 days.
As far as we know, we're looking at roughly a 1-2 month period Intel did absolutely nothing about this. Perhaps a way of disabling non K overclocking was brewing?

Since it seems to have first started in December, or became publicly known to some extent, I suppose it's quite possible Intel's employees went on holidays as December is kind of a holiday period.
However I'm not sure of Intel's work schedule so I can't say for certain.

So we're looking at the whole of January where nothing was done to counter the non K overclocking, but between December and January more and more manufacturers released bios updates to enable non K overclocking.

I wonder why it took them so long? I suppose the fact that they're releasing these new bios updates to prevent overclocking on non K processors means that the manufacturers didn't get the go ahead from Intel to do it.

It's interesting that you speak of sales trends, as that may have been a factor in what alerted them of this in the first place.

There's many possibilities, but why would Intel prevent overclocking on non K processors if it possibly meant that they were shifting even more processors then before?

We don't really know how many processors they sold as a result of the ability to overclock non K processors, so we can't really say for certain if that was a variable in the matter.
It's also possible that this negatively impacted the sales of the K processors.

Perhaps Intel have plans to release an unlocked Pentium alongside an i3?
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post #198 of 340
I wonder if or when this will spread to the other mb vendors. One thing I have noticed is no other mb maker has done a single thing except ASRock.

So why is Intel just going after ASRock or why are they the only ones so far backtracking?

Is it because they were more actively marketing it and Intel felt they were doing it in a way that showed them as officially supporting it?

I guess we can only hope for more reports to come through this week and maybe we can get some clarification.

So many boards such as Gigabyte having a Turbo B-Clock and all, I can't help but feel someone in Intel knew what was going on and certain board partners had parameters to stay within and ASRock stepped outside of them?

Taking a step back and looking at all mb makers Bios as of now this is interesting.
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post #199 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlhil2 View Post

Just buy the "K" part, SUCCESS...

But my budget may only be enough for an i3 or Pentium. There's no actual reason for Intel to prohibit OCing except that enthusiasts will happily pay an extra $20 for the feature, if anything it's extra work for them to disable OCing..

I can't actually believe that anyone supports Intel in this...It's blatant extortion of users to spend more on the same part and there can't be much that's legal in how they've worked this out with ASRock.

Especially when you consider the whole AMD anti-competitiveness thing...
    
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post #200 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

But my budget may only be enough for an i3 or Pentium. There's no actual reason for Intel to prohibit OCing except that enthusiasts will happily pay an extra $20 for the feature, if anything it's extra work for them to disable OCing..

I can't actually believe that anyone supports Intel in this...It's blatant extortion of users to spend more on the same part and there can't be much that's legal in how they've worked this out with ASRock.

Especially when you consider the whole AMD anti-competitiveness thing...

But you could pay 3 times the money if you had it, for an unlocked part, think of intel! thumb.gif

Now seriously, I don't actually know why intel decided it'd be smart to piss off the hobbyist crowd. Was it really needed for having an enthusiast bracket? I'm no expert on this, so just asking!
Edited by Tivan - 2/6/16 at 12:24pm
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [WCCF]Intel Might be Forcing Ban on Non-K OC Feature on Skylake Motherboards – Updated BIOS Rolling Out Soon