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[WCCF]Intel Might be Forcing Ban on Non-K OC Feature on Skylake Motherboards – Updated BIOS Rolling Out Soon - Page 22

post #211 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Intel doesn't need a reason. They certainly don't need your approval. Ever.

Don't like it, buy something else. Doesn't matter if you complain, if you keep buying it then the receipt you get after says "I Support Intel for doing this" to their ears.


Makes sense to me, as I am having a déjà vu about the same argument being made (stop whining, don't like it, buy something else argument, that is) by Nvidia fans here innumerable times ... Lol

But, I don't have as big an issue with Intel, as CPUs don't have as much an impact on PC gaming that involve discreet gpus. But, having limitations of various kind on the discreet gpus is what impacts most of the folks here (other than 2d benchers), I would guess.
Edited by provost - 2/6/16 at 6:43pm
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post #212 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serandur View Post

Duh? I never said they did. Obviously, the fact that they're doing it means they don't need anyone here's approval. The terms "consumer-justifiable reason" and "because Intel can" should have tipped you off. I'm explicitly not talking about reasons they can't do something. Instead, I was referring to those in this thread who justify shunning complaints on the basis of "you're just cheap" when the disapproval's really a much more complex "no, I just remember overclocking being a thing before stupid premiums, know it's a ripoff market segmentation strategy, and as a consumer (which all of us here), I don't approve".

No one's talking about them needing our approval. Them not needing our approval, however, doesn't mean they have our approval and doesn't mean forumgoers can't be critical about it.
That's great... except every chip Intel sells falls under the category of either locked or unlocked and the general umbrella of Intel's market segmentation strategy. Every person buying any modern x86 chip suitable for the express purposes of performance and/or efficiency are going to be buying Intel. Therefore, every person that's buying a modern x86 chip suitable for performance and/or efficiency are supporting this practice and therefore shouldn't complain because complaining is meaningless? Wonderful, what's next? Every x86 buyer not buying Intel supports antiquated, poorly-performing, inefficient designs unsuited for various workloads and therefore shouldn't complain about those issues because complaining about a company whose product you own is meaningless? Are people's complaints now valid only if they don't buy from the company they're critiquing... even if they really have no other choice? And then, if they're buying from another company and critiquing Intel's products, those people will be met with claims of "you're just being a fanboy trying to justify your purchase".

I don't buy Intel to support their practices, I buy Intel because there is no reasonable alternative for what I need an x86 CPU for. Which is the same reason why Intel are comfortable administering these practices. If complaining, on a forum centered around these types of discussions, is the last course of action a consumer can reasonably take, they are certainly free to complain and are not inherently wrong for doing so.

I agree with everything you are saying man but lets face it, until AMD comes out with something that even remotely competes with Intel in the x86 arena they are going to continue to do what they've been doing since SB because there is absolutely no incentive for them not to. As you said, people like you and me are not in favor of their current business practices but aren't going to put up with far inferior products just to stand on principle. Its a real catch 22 because, while I'd love to go for anything other than Intel the fact remains that there is nothing out there that can remotely compete with even my IB-E processor, much less the new Haswell-E or even Skylake mainstream stuff. I understand perfectly KyadCK's point that complaining about it here on OCN has absolutely zero impact on intel's business strategy but this is a computer DISCUSSION forum after all and we should be able to discuss our dissatisfaction with any product here if we like (although with some discussions the "beating a dead horse" aspect of the discussion can get old after countless threads and posts on the subject; MS and Windows comes to mind here).

I think you make a great point that what you are arguing about isn't intended to have any effect on Intel at all (and that would be silly to expect that in the first place) but, instead, is intended to counter the frankly insulting and elitist position several other members here on OCN that people are simply being cheap in not wanting to just buy -K processors and shut up already. The fact is that the majority of people around the world simply cannot afford these premium products and are stuck with lower priced components as their only options. For the young kid building his first gaming rig or the parent of 3 kids trying to put together a competent family system on a small budget it would be nice to be able to buy a $100 processor that they could squeeze some extra performance out of, many of which (on Intel's side) are very much capable of delivering hardware-wise but, for wholly arbitrary reasons, have not been allowed to do so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

Makes sense to me, as I am having a déjà vu about the same argument being made (stop whining, don't like it, buy something else argument, that is) by Nvidia fans here innumerable times ... Lol

But, I don't have as big an issue with Intel, as CPUs don't have as much an impact on PC gaming that involve discreet gpus. But, having limitations of various kind on the discreet gpus is what impacts most of the folks here (other than 2d benchers), I would guess.

I rarely disagree with you on anything but in this situation I would actually argue that Intel is far worse than Nvidia for this simple reason: At least on the discreet graphics side there is viable competition for Nvidia's products. Sure the 980Ti is the top card out there but if you don't like Nvidia for whatever reason you can easily buy a Fury X or Fury and still have a very competitive product on your hands. With processors there is basically Intel and nothing else unless you are talking about gaming exclusively, and even then the Intel products provide a very significant performance advantage...
Edited by Majin SSJ Eric - 2/6/16 at 7:30pm
post #213 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post


I rarely disagree with you on anything but in this situation I would actually argue that Intel is far worse than Nvidia for this simple reason: At least on the discreet graphics side there is viable competition for Nvidia's products. Sure the 980Ti is the top card out there but if you don't like Nvidia for whatever reason you can easily buy a Fury X or Fury and still have a very competitive product on your hands. With processors there is basically Intel and nothing else unless you are talking about gaming exclusively, and even then the Intel products provide a very significant performance advantage...

Great points! My comment was more tongue in cheek, as you know I am all about more competition than less competition, from a consumer point of view. Like you, I am still on a couple of sb-e's as a I haven't felt the need to upgrade as any improvement in the gaming experience would be negligible ( well other than skylake in laptops as I refuse to run Nvidia cards, so I traded off discreet gpu for portability and haswell/broadwell in a couple of secondary rigs).

My point was that once I have spent my money on a cpu, I don't need to worry about driver support being suboptimized when Intel releases a new sku (or it doesn't impact the PC gaming experience in a discreet gpu set up)

But, honestly, I am out of my depth when it comes to AMD CPUs, since I don't know much about them from my own experience. I thought I heard that AMD would be coming out with a new competitive cpu in the next release cycle that may give Intel run for its money?
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post #214 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serandur View Post

Useless excuses? They're facts and criticism of your faulty logic. Intel have a monopoly, there is no reasonable choice. As I said, that's why they can do this. And that certainly doesn't make complaining unreasonable. I like how you just sidestepped the gaping flaw in your logic. Buying from a company does not mean you have to personally stop voicing disapproval and doesn't mean you automatically approve of all the practices a company undertakes. Support financially? Sure, of course. So what? I don't have to approve of all that they do, just disapprove less of the overall package than I do from... whatever's left of the competition. I don't need to spell it out for you, you know exactly what I mean.

Nobody needs your approval to disapprove of a company's actions just because they bought/buy products from that company. And if that's not the claim you're making, then you stumbled upon the wrong post to take out of context.

Have to agree 100% with this. I only bought Intel because I had to since my usage needs required high single core performance. I have and do try to buy AMD whenever possible.

For my area, there used to be only 2 major ISPs and both implemented data caps. In order to get a connection, I had to use either one of their services. Just because I was using their services didn;t meant I agreed with their implementation of data caps. I simply had no other choice and when I did complain and vocally at times about their data caps, I don't see how me being one of their customers invalidated my concerns and complaints.

Just as they (Intel) are free to do what they want, I am free to raise a stink and complain about it as much as I want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post


But, honestly, I am out of my depth when it comes to AMD CPUs, since I don't know much about them from my own experience. I thought I heard that AMD would be coming out with a new competitive cpu in the next release cycle that may give Intel run for its money?

They're supposed to launch Zen near the end of the year which is an 'all new' design that increases IPC by up to 40% (maybe match Haswell) over their current chips.
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post #215 of 340
So it is a power saving feature that causes instability when overclocking? I seem to remember having that issue trying to push my non k ivy i7 past 4.3 ghz.
post #216 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Intel doesn't need a reason. They certainly don't need your approval. Ever.

Don't like it, buy something else. Doesn't matter if you complain, if you keep buying it then the receipt you get after says "I Support Intel for doing this" to their ears.
Well... To be fair, if you are overclocking, you are not using vPro. Period. In fact, you don't even want it.

vPro is Intel's remote control/security suite. Remote startup, shutdown, bios-level control, etc. You are not using it outside of seriously large (multi-thousand user) business, and those businesses do not use -K chips. You also don't get vPro on lower end models.

VT-d being disabled was annoying, but again, it's use purpose is direct slot pass-through cards to VMs (ala ESXi). Not something you use for chips you'd OC. Disabling it does make it less appealing to the VM crowd, but it does not impact OCing nor anything you run Windows on. It is now enabled on newer K-series parts.

If you want to complain, it should be about the missing instruction sets on Pentiums and i3s.

but then you realize that today you want vt-d or vpro features and next day you want to overclock......so buy 2 chips? thats abit too sad isnt it

i'll pay $100 premium on top of a K for a non-k with all the k features and non k features and perhaps even ECC support and that its not ended with a K suffix so no im not too cheap to buy a K
post #217 of 340
My sig media server has an H87 pro4 with a 4670k at 4.2ghz. Intel made asrock lock out the non-k overclocking feature via bios update. Asrock left the overclocking bios on thier site and moving backwards a bios is non issue.

So I would think in this simular situation maybe the asrock mobos will be able to keep this somehow?
Edited by Wirerat - 2/6/16 at 9:03pm
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post #218 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post

My sig media server has an H87 pro4 with a 4670k at 4.2ghz. Intel made asrock lock out the non-k overclocking feature via bios update. Asrock left the overclocking bios on thier site and moving backwards a bios is non issue.

So I would think in this simular situation maybe the asrock mobos will be able to keep this somehow?

on your case there is the non Z overclocking.

it was sad enough that you must have a Z board to overclock yet not all Z boards properly support SLI.

most of the time im forced to buy a Z board just for SLI support even when not overclocking
post #219 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by akromatic View Post

on your case there is the non Z overclocking.

it was sad enough that you must have a Z board to overclock yet not all Z boards properly support SLI.

most of the time im forced to buy a Z board just for SLI support even when not overclocking
I was not planning to overclock the 4670k when I purchased h87pro4. I was updating my media server for more cpu transcoding grunt. I already had the I5 after updating a gaming rig.

It was a pleasant suprise when I attempted to roll back bios and it had zero issues. There is a catch though. Windows 10 will not work without the newer locked bios microcode.
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post #220 of 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post

I was not planning to overclock the 4670k when I purchased h87pro4. I was updating my media server for more cpu transcoding grunt. I already had the I5 after updating a gaming rig.

It was a pleasant suprise when I attempted to roll back bios and it had zero issues. There is a catch though. Windows 10 will not work without the newer locked bios microcode.

what was your reason to get a K over a non k especially when not overclocking?

stock clock speeds difference barely justifies the premium. i do understand that K series do get a tad better IGP (which IMO is redundant as if you most likely be using a dedi GPU) and they probably resell better because have the "gaymers" out there would just buy the K because its the most expensive and its K which sounds cooler.

probably intel talked to MS to push something that makes win10 not function corrrectly without the " fix" when it was previously fine. i expected them to share a bed after skylake forcing users off win7 and MS mentioned that they would not support older OS users on skylake
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