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[144Hz] [BR] [G-sync] [FreeSync] Whole truth about 144Hz monitors and blur reduction/syncing technologies - Page 3

post #21 of 35
First of all, I don't even think the original poster bought the XL2720Z.
If he did, he would have read my tweaks and would be VERY happy with the results after doing them.
I can tell by his completely wrong comment about blur reduction--meaning if he DID buy it, he was too lazy to read this thread:

http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2590

Second--I know why CS players don't use blur reduction.
it's because 1) they don't usually like vsync at all because they don't like the 6.9ms (144 hz) / 8.3ms (120hz) / 10 ms (100hz) of input lag response time it adds, and playing with sample and hold doesn't help that cause. 2) they don't know HOW to tweak blur reduction to add NO input lag compared to blur reduction off.

The first problem is Lightboost mode back on the pre Benq blur reduction 3d vision 2 monitors.
Lightboost works best if you keep FPS equal to refresh rate, which is of course done with vsync enabled.
Since people think vsync is the Devil's son, you already have a problem to begin with.

Then, Lightboost, due to the way it works--to maintain the lowest amount of strobe crosstalk, uses two things to do this:

1) accelerated scanout, through the monitor's LC panel, instead of through the video card, which extends the blanking interval on the monitor side internally (this gives the panel more time to complete a pixel color transition during a strobe, which lowers the frame "strobe crosstalk" of the next frame being superimposed on the current frame (actually to be precise, it's the current frame being mixed with the next frame):

2) adds 1 frame of input lag (6.9 ms added at 120hz refresh rate):
this is done because to minimize the strobe crosstalk at 120hz, the strobe happens during the **NEXT** frame, not the current frame. If you do a lightboost test at 120hz on a lightboost compatible monitor and google chrome (or any browser which can display 120hz 120 fps vsync on in HTML5, which internet exploder can not do), in full screen mode:

http://www.testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=alien-invasion.png&pps=960&pursuit=0&height=-1

If you look at the very bottom of the screen, you willi notice the beginnings of a double image where two frames start blending together.
What you are actually seeing is at the very bottom, the beginnings of the CURRENT frame's data, while 90% of the rest of the screen (almost all of it) has the NEXT frame's data.

I'm explaining this for a reason.


When Benq made benq blur reduction, they actually reverse engineered the lightboost tech for their own purposes.
Proof of this is on this website, and noticing that the strobe wires serve the same function.

http://display-corner.epfl.ch/index.php/BenQ_XL2411Z

It's also worth noting that both Benq blur reduction and Lightboost increase the backlight voltage current by 1.8x to compensate for the loss of brightness from strobing. The reason why ULMB is MUCH darker than benq blur reduction (or lightboost) at the same pulse width is because ULMB DOES NOT DO THIS. This was first noted in the VG248QE ULMB prototype boards that went out, where people said it was much darker, but had better colors.

The fact that BBR And Lightboost both increase voltage by 1.8x shows that the same base tech is being used. However Benq blur reduction originally did NOT use accelerated scanout at all, while Lightboost did. But Benq, to lower input lag as much as possible, used a default Strobe phase of "100" on the original V1 version firmware monitors, and this was not changeable. They did this for two reasons:

1) to keep the top of the screen as crosstalk free as possible (like Lightboost). Since the top of the screen is more important in counterstrike and FPS games than the bottom of the screen, this was a decision based on logic.

2) to prevent any input lag penalty from using blur reduction.

the problem was, Lightboost used Accelerated scanout in hardware (this required a custom video card refresh rate so the monitor kicked into 3D mode, which activated the new timings), but this also came at an image quality performance loss --e.g. faint horizontal scanlines which would often appear around the top right of the screen, since the panel was being run out of normal specifications. But this reduced the amount of crosstalk massively, so 3D vision would look much better.

Since Benq blur reduction was supposed to be seamless and not require any special hardware to use, accelerated scanout did not exist for Benq blur reduction. Therefore, their default strobe phase of "100" had another drawback---Crosstalk would cover a VERY LARGE part of the bottom of the screen! At 144hz, the entire bottom half of the screen had crosstalk.

Benq, due to complaints about the crosstalk, and for a request for people to be able to adjust how much blur reduction were available, made a new firmware which would allow adjusting the "strobe phase" as well as the pulse width (persistence). Strobe phase of 000 would have lower crosstalk than strobe phase 100, however the drawback of strobe phase 000 was you would have one frame HIGHER INPUT LAG than strobe phase 100.

Note that Lightboost also used a strobe phase (internally) of 000.

So what's with the accelerated scanout?

Well, the monitor's own scaler would have to be able to handle this.
With Lightboost, this was done via a LC panel timing change.

However as I said, Benq blur reduction was a MODIFICATION to Lightboost's strobing by Benq to make strobing work without requiring Nvidia hardware and to allow full monitor OSD adjustments. But the same monitor scaler was used of course (obviously), so a bug existed which people used to their own benefit:

Lightboost internally changed the vertical blanking timing to the monitor to reduce the strobe crosstalk.
However you can do the same thing by increasing the vertical total via custom resolution.
Lightboost did the same thing to the monitor scaler, that a custom Vertical total of 1497-1502 did for Benq blur reduction.
It was the EXACT Same thing. the only difference is Lightboost did this internally through the monitor while Benq blur reduction accepted this due to a bug, since the monitor scaler received the SAME TIMINGS when Lightboost was activated !

By doing a comparison test: I was able to determine that Benq blur reduction at 120hz refresh rate and a Strobe duty of "009" (1.5ms persistence) WITH a vertical total tweak of VT 1500 (without this VT tweak, the persistence of strobe duty 009 would be 0.083 x 9 = 0.747 ms, instead of 0.167 x = 9 = 1.5), and a Strobe phase of "000", both Lightboost (tested at 120hz unlocked lightboost on my XL2720Z) and Benq blur reduction had the EXACT SAME crosstalk amount to the PIXEL.

Just to make sure I wasn't full of crap, I hooked up my Asus VG248QE 24" monitor, unlocked Lightboost, ran test UFO alien invasion at 120hz full screen...and sure enough....EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF CROSSTALK TO THE PIXEL as Benq blur reduction with strobe phase 000, strobe duty 009 and 120hz and Vertical Total 1500 tweak active.

Again however, the penalty of using a strobe phase 000 is 1 frame higher input lag.

So.....how do you solve that?

You do what Benq ORIGINALLY had suggested in their old V1 monitors==you use a strobe phase of 100.
However when using a VT tweak, the backlight will *SHUT OFF* at strobe phase 100, because you wind up trying to strobe into the frame BEFORE the current frame (which doesn't exist). The math for all that shenanigans is explained completely in this thread:

http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2590

Basically, the current refresh rate and strobe persistence limits the maximum strobe phase allowed. When a VT tweak is active, the normal persistence values get "forced" into the 60hz persistence values (60hz persistence values are equal to the 60hz REFRESH RATE persistence -- 16.7 milliseconds) divided by 100 = .167 per point of strobe duty.

Usually with benq blur reduction, the persistence values depend on the refresh rate divided by 100, at ALL REFRESH RATES, so if you look at this chart:
http://display-corner.epfl.ch/index.php/BenQ_XL2411Z

you can see that the persistence values for 144hz are 0.069 ms, and for 120hz are 0.083ms, which are the refresh rate persistences divided by 100.

But when you use a VT tweak, these persistences get FORCED into the 60hz values. This LIMITS the maximum strobe phase from 100 (normally) to a lower value, all which I listed in my thread.

So--to get ZERO ADDED INPUT LAG from benq blur reduction, while MINIMIZING the amount of strobe crosstalk (remember you will ALWAYS have more strobe crosstalk at a high strobe phase than strobe phase 000, no matter what), you need to RAISE The strobe phase UP TO THE POINT WHERE THE BACKLIGHT SHUTS OFF, then DROP IT by 1. this will be equal to 0.167ms of strobe persistence--which is too dim to be usable (the maximum strobe duty will be 001; higher values won't work). Then you KEEP dropping the strobe phase by 1 (while raising the strobe duty) until the brightness becomes acceptable to game with, so you balance strobe crosstalk + no added input lag + how dim you want the screen to be.

For example: Here are my Call of Duty black Ops 3 settings:

1920x1080, 85hz refresh rate
Vertical Total VT 1501
Strobe phase 064
Strobe duty 006/007 (1.0ms persistence).

Strobe phase higher than 071 shuts off the backlight.

If I used a strobe phase of 000< I'd have more input lag -- 11.7 ms higher input lag--the same thing those CS players complained about.

if those CS pros knew what I knew about how Benq blur reduction worked, people wouldn't have complained about strobing so much.

NOTE: THE XL2730Z DOES NOT RESPOND TO VT TWEAKS. AREA (strobe phase=100) still has no added input lag but crosstalk is TOO HIGH.


if anyone here read all of this and actually understood what I'm saying---MAD PROPS and good job. You're more intelligent and patient than 90% of the adult population. Put it to good use. I doubt most people followed this.

AND NO--THIS WAS NOT A COPY AND PASTE. I WROTE THE ENTIRE DAMN MESSAGE OVER A HALF HOUR OF FREAKING TYPING.
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post #22 of 35
^ You should change your user title to "BenQ XL2720z expert" or something similar. tongue.gif
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post #23 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmaster47 View Post

NO and no. You are wrong.
I and many other pros/semipros feels difference between 144 and 400-500 in CSGO and other games (UT2k4, Q, UT3, Reflex, and any game that can run at 500FPS+ w/o issues)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWSRTYV8e0

So, what exactly am I wrong about? I literally said there is an improvement in input response when using an uncapped frame rate in my reply and you're just repeating that to prove I'm "wrong"?

Quote:
It's obvious as gravity. More fps = less input lag.

Quite possibly the most idiotic example I've read in my entire life. Literally laughed out loud when I read that.

Quote:
And you can get stable 300-400+ even with 1 videocard easily, graphics on very low (only silvers playing at high) and powerful GPU+CPU. For me it's I7-3770@4500 and 780TI@1100 And you don't need powerful PC, if you are playing low res/4:3.

My 970 and i5 must be faulty then, because I can't hold a stable 300-400+ in any FPS games. My 970 drops to 160-220 on all low on source engine games in heavy combat/fighting. I can easily break 300+ sitting in an idle room though.
Edited by gene-z - 2/7/16 at 5:28pm
    
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post #24 of 35
You lost my interest completely when you said "gsync / freesync is useless for gaming, you should play at 300fps". Let me guess, the only game you play is CS:GO?

I don't like blur reduction anyway, it makes image quality worse (except for blur), flickers and does not work with gsync, that is enough to make it useless on a gsync monitor.
post #25 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post

First of all, I don't even think the original poster bought the XL2720Z.
Why are you lying?

I absolutely clearly said about this poor quality BenQs:

1) 1st I bought was 2411Z and this as a result:
http://i.imgur.com/gq48iVM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xV9rIRG.jpg

2) Then I bought BY YOUR ADVICE 2720Z and it has:
http://i.imgur.com/LKCPThb.jpg
A) Not working touch-buttons (2 out of 5)
B) Backlight bleeding.

I don't bother myself about replying to a "person" that bases its conclusions on imagination (exapmle: I don't even think the original poster bought the XL2720Z). YES I BOUGHT AND MONEYBACKED IT THE SAME DAY.
So get lost with your filthy lying thoughts BenQ fanboy. Are you already on salary in BenQ PR department? :DDD
post #26 of 35
Whatever. you pissed me off. Putting you on my IGNORE list and NEVER talking to you again, creep. ENJOY your broken 2 buttons. BYE.
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post #27 of 35
Quote:
My 970 and i5 must be faulty then, because I can't hold a stable 300-400+ in any FPS games. My 970 drops to 160-220 on all low on source engine games in heavy combat/fighting. I can easily break 300+ sitting in an idle room though.
'If you're playing at more than 640x480 with no Nvidia Inspector tweaks to remove the textures and all fancy video effects (such as anti-alisaing) you're doing it wrong' (impersonation of every 'competitive' CS-GO/broken mechanics FPS ever).
Thanks to these kind of tweaks my 780ti can run the original SF4 benchmark AT OVER 900 FPS !!1! (really actually)
 
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post #28 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightmaster47 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkentyne View Post

First of all, I don't even think the original poster bought the XL2720Z.
Why are you lying?

I absolutely clearly said about this poor quality BenQs:

1) 1st I bought was 2411Z and this as a result:
http://i.imgur.com/gq48iVM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xV9rIRG.jpg

2) Then I bought BY YOUR ADVICE 2720Z and it has:
http://i.imgur.com/LKCPThb.jpg
A) Not working touch-buttons (2 out of 5)
B) Backlight bleeding.

I don't bother myself about replying to a "person" that bases its conclusions on imagination (exapmle: I don't even think the original poster bought the XL2720Z). YES I BOUGHT AND MONEYBACKED IT THE SAME DAY.
So get lost with your filthy lying thoughts BenQ fanboy. Are you already on salary in BenQ PR department? :DDD


Great job, great reading comprehension. thumb.gif
You benefit so much to OCN.

  • First of all, what you claim for ultimate truth is incorrect for a huge chunk of the use-cases. If you are going to spread such extreme statements, at least be objective about it and specify any applicable scenarios for where they stand valid.
  • Second, if you had really based your purchasing decision on Falkentyne's post like you said, then you should have at least tried to tweak as per his guide and compiled resource base.
  • Third, so far I haven't seen you disprove any of the replies but wave them off and completely disregard the essence of the post just to pick a sentence and over-interpret its meaning until you completely twist it around.
  • Last, but not least - just because you are, by the looks of it, very unlucky with your products doesn't mean that everyone else is. I have no issues whatsoever on my 2411Z. Oh, and Falkentyre actually was one of the members here who swayed my decision towards the BenQ. I just did my fair share of reading, then took my time configuring everything that was needed for a fast image experience, and I couldn't be happier (unless you give me an equal CRT).

How do you feel the difference between 150 and 500FPS in CS:GO is beyond me since player output is based on the cl_cmdrate as long as it is equal to or higher than your framerate (total player output is the lower value of the two), and the competitive play bar MM is still 128-tick. Even if you try forcing a higher sample output, your value will be lowered to the server's tickrate.
You simply cannot force more samples than what the server will probe for before it buffers the next world frame.

Furthermore, why do you people still play on 4:3?!
CS:GO (and CS:S too) uses hor+ scaling, which means that by using 4:3 you are seeing a smaller part of the world.
Default vertical FoV in CS:GO is 74o.
In 4:3, you see 90o;
In 16:9, you see 106o;
In 16:10, you see 100o.

It has been so since CS1.6 which has a fixed 90o field of view regardless of your resolution's aspect ratio.
Edited by fragamemnon - 2/10/16 at 6:57am
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post #29 of 35
Quote:
In 4:3, you see 90o;
In 16:9, you see 106o;
In 16:10, you see 100o.

It has been so since CS1.6 which has a fixed 90o field of view regardless of your resolution's aspect ratio.
This is meant to stretch all the elements at the screen so it is easier to aim for the broken head hitbox.
It's one of the funny competitive gaming 'tweaks'
 
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Samson SR850 Semi-Open Studio Reference Headphones
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Good value headphones (with equalization)
Samson SR850 Semi-Open Studio Reference Headphones
My Rig
(3 photos)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 4690k @4.4Ghz Msi Z97 Gaming 5  Asus GTX 780 ti DirectCU II HyperX Savage RAM 8 Go 2400 MHZ DDR3 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
WD Green Desktop Mainstream 2 To Thermalright HR-02 Macho Rev. B Window 7 64bits Samsung SyncMaster P2470HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Raptor K30 Be Quiet! Straight Power 10 700W  Phanteks Enthoo Pro Window Perixx MX-1000 Iron 
AudioAudio
Asus Xonar U3 USB samson sr 850 
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post #30 of 35
I don't get care what others think but ..benq blur reduction master race rulzz

note: yeah, I'm trying to sound like the OP but I love it nevertheless.
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Just a 'puter
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 6700K ASUS Maximus VIII Hero iGPU thanks to Nvidia 970 3.5GB Corsair Vengeance LPX CMK8GX4M2B3200C16 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung 950 PRO 512GB Crucial M4 256GB RX360 V3 Koolance CPU-380I 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Koolance RP-452X2 Reservoir Koolance PMP-450 12V Variable Speed Pump Windows 10 Pro x64 benq XL2411Z 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
logitech G510 Seasonic X-760 Corsair 800D Mionix Castor 
AudioAudio
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD DT 990 Premium 250Ohm 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Monitors and Displays › [144Hz] [BR] [G-sync] [FreeSync] Whole truth about 144Hz monitors and blur reduction/syncing technologies