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Performance of the new Alpenföhn Olymp? - Page 3

post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

Its a shame, I thought that the TS140 Power was going to convince someone to make a dual tower with 6X8 mm pipes that might nudge up performance another notch. Looks like we really are stuck for the moment at around the same level redface.gif I'm guessing 6-8 mm must be the sweet spot for heatpipes as thats what most everyone seems to go for.
If you look at the size of a CPU chip vs the size of the integrated heat sink versus the size of a cooler base it become rather clear that 6x 8mm heatpipes are wider than the CPU IHS .. and this is even more extreme when compared to CPU chip. What ends up happenign is the heatpipes over or near the CPU chip draw away so much heat that the heatpipes farther out progressive less until the serve no functional purpose. Silver Arrow ITX testing shows the truth of this. SS SB-E is same basic cooler; same fin packs on both, with SS ITX havng 6x 6mm pipes in a 42mm wide base compared to SS SB-E having 8x 6mm pipes in a 53mm wide base. Even though SS ITX uses 50% as much fan and 75% as many heatpipes as SS SB-E, their cooling is similar. Silver Arrow ITX performance is only a few degrees warmer than PH-TC14PE, R1, DRP3, Okeanos, etc. And I'm sure a 2nd fan would cut the differences in half. wink.gif

Note: Please keep in mind most cooler review testing is done in cases using room ambient temperatures to calculate the delta performance. They are not cooler comparison at all, but system comparison using different coolers. To compare coolers we need to use the cooler intake air temps to calculate the delta temps. What they are doing is like cooking in the kitchen and wondering how hot it is, then going into another room to look at a thermometer and saying 'Wow, it sure feels hotter than this in the kitchen." Yeah, right! it is hotter in the kitchen! mad.gif
post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

If you look at the size of a CPU chip vs the size of the integrated heat sink versus the size of a cooler base it become rather clear that 6x 8mm heatpipes are wider than the CPU IHS .. and this is even more extreme when compared to CPU chip. What ends up happenign is the heatpipes over or near the CPU chip draw away so much heat that the heatpipes farther out progressive less until the serve no functional purpose. Silver Arrow ITX testing shows the truth of this. SS SB-E is same basic cooler; same fin packs on both, with SS ITX havng 6x 6mm pipes in a 42mm wide base compared to SS SB-E having 8x 6mm pipes in a 53mm wide base. Even though SS ITX uses 50% as much fan and 75% as many heatpipes as SS SB-E, their cooling is similar. Silver Arrow ITX performance is only a few degrees warmer than PH-TC14PE, R1, DRP3, Okeanos, etc. And I'm sure a 2nd fan would cut the differences in half. wink.gif

Note: Please keep in mind most cooler review testing is done in cases using room ambient temperatures to calculate the delta performance. They are not cooler comparison at all, but system comparison using different coolers. To compare coolers we need to use the cooler intake air temps to calculate the delta temps. What they are doing is like cooking in the kitchen and wondering how hot it is, then going into another room to look at a thermometer and saying 'Wow, it sure feels hotter than this in the kitchen." Yeah, right! it is hotter in the kitchen! mad.gif

I understand that, thanks smile.gif I had just thought the TS 140 must have had some special voodoo with those heat pipes to make it perform so well, I had it in mind that those thicker pipes must work more efficiently as I hadnt seen a single tower pushing up against the dual towers quite so close in performance before, although I may have missed something.

As the other rev a model performs similarly I suppose that's not necessarily the case, if I understand it correctly, so long as the heatsink itself isnt oversaturated a single tower will cool just as well as a dual tower give the same number of pipes and same fans of course.

I do wonder if thicker or more heatpipes might then work better with a larger heatsink on something like an 8 core Haswell E or a FX 8 core as they have a larger die size and are soldered to the IHS.

So basically we're talking about needing some new materials, innovative new heatpipe design or something completely outside the box in order to significantly progress air cooling performance these days, at least with Intel quads as they are. I guess there's always diminishing returns, although I may be jumping the gun a bit, we havent seen the Alpenfohn tested yet!
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

I understand that, thanks smile.gif I had just thought the TS 140 must have had some special voodoo with those heat pipes to make it perform so well, I had it in mind that those thicker pipes must work more efficiently as I hadnt seen a single tower pushing up against the dual towers quite so close in performance before, although I may have missed something.

As the other rev a model performs similarly I suppose that's not necessarily the case, if I understand it correctly, so long as the heatsink itself isnt oversaturated a single tower will cool just as well as a dual tower give the same number of pipes and same fans of course.

I do wonder if thicker or more heatpipes might then work better with a larger heatsink on something like an 8 core Haswell E or a FX 8 core as they have a larger die size and are soldered to the IHS.

So basically we're talking about needing some new materials, innovative new heatpipe design or something completely outside the box in order to significantly progress air cooling performance these days, at least with Intel quads as they are. I guess there's always diminishing returns, although I may be jumping the gun a bit, we havent seen the Alpenfohn tested yet!
The real limiting factor is the size of the source of the heat. the heat dissipation is limited by how small the the chip is. What are they, 10-12mm square ?? IHS is the size it is not because it spreads heat, but to give a base big enough to hold a cooler flat and true on the chip. Processor heat changes extremely fast. Capturing and removing that heat from such a small area has been a problem for a long time now. wink.gif The 6x 8mm pipes work very well. But the overall base area they cover is the same as 8x 6mm pipes. I don't know a lot about the different wicking surfaces used in heatpipes, but do know some are better than others. But the with equal surface area for 6x 8mm or 8x 6mm, the only possible difference is the vapor flow area. My guess is the vaporization area of the pipes is the limiting factor. Have you seen the test results of Thermalright\s new Macho Direct? for a Macho fin pack using only 5x 6mm pipes ground flat on one side using an aluminum base to hold them (base does not contact CPU IHS at all) it is quite impressive.
http://www.gamezoom.net/artikel/Thermalright_Macho_Direct_Test_Review-35070-2
Usual disclaimer about room ambient being used instead of cooler intake air temps. tongue.gif
post #24 of 42
Thread Starter 
I am wondering if we will see new super towers from Cyrorig, Noctua, Phanteks, Prolimatech, and the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

The real limiting factor is the size of the source of the heat. the heat dissipation is limited by how small the the chip is. What are they, 10-12mm square ?? IHS is the size it is not because it spreads heat, but to give a base big enough to hold a cooler flat and true on the chip. Processor heat changes extremely fast. Capturing and removing that heat from such a small area has been a problem for a long time now. wink.gif The 6x 8mm pipes work very well. But the overall base area they cover is the same as 8x 6mm pipes. I don't know a lot about the different wicking surfaces used in heatpipes, but do know some are better than others. But the with equal surface area for 6x 8mm or 8x 6mm, the only possible difference is the vapor flow area. My guess is the vaporization area of the pipes is the limiting factor. Have you seen the test results of Thermalright\s new Macho Direct? for a Macho fin pack using only 5x 6mm pipes ground flat on one side using an aluminum base to hold them (base does not contact CPU IHS at all) it is quite impressive.
http://www.gamezoom.net/artikel/Thermalright_Macho_Direct_Test_Review-35070-2
Usual disclaimer about room ambient being used instead of cooler intake air temps. tongue.gif


I wonder if an LGA 2011 CPU would be able to better take advantage of this in that regard. The heatspreaders on the LGA 115X CPUs aren't that large at all.

The larger CPU size might help it out in that regard, although the size of the heatsink means that the first PCI-E slot (for GPUs) will not be usable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Looks like a bigger version of Atlas



As you can see, only the outer edges of fins are angled.


Yep, only the sides are angled. Can be hard to see as they haven't given us a direct frontal shot yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroCat View Post

Think it's going to need powerful fans to push through those canted fins. Could be a noisy, turbulent beast. If the fins aren't soldered, that might hurt it too. However, it's always good to see new big, burly air coolers even if it whistles while it works. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Just noticed the Raijintek Tsis Core refresh - a decent value cooler, now in sexy black!


Sadly for frozen north air fiends, Alpenfoehn isn't sold in Canada. Appears Raijintek has discontinued distribution as well. Joining Scythe and Thermalright as great brands not available to purchase. Oh, well, too many choices is never a good thing. ;-)


If it's sold in the US, you may be able to get it through a border mailing address. I use Kinek for that.

Agree though that the fans they've supplied might not supply enough static pressure to take advantage of the cooler though.
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post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

I am wondering if we will see new super towers from Cyrorig, Noctua, Phanteks, Prolimatech, and the others.
I wonder if an LGA 2011 CPU would be able to better take advantage of this in that regard. The heatspreaders on the LGA 115X CPUs aren't that large at all.

I was wondering the same smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

The real limiting factor is the size of the source of the heat. the heat dissipation is limited by how small the the chip is. What are they, 10-12mm square ?? IHS is the size it is not because it spreads heat, but to give a base big enough to hold a cooler flat and true on the chip. Processor heat changes extremely fast. Capturing and removing that heat from such a small area has been a problem for a long time now. wink.gif The 6x 8mm pipes work very well. But the overall base area they cover is the same as 8x 6mm pipes. I don't know a lot about the different wicking surfaces used in heatpipes, but do know some are better than others. But the with equal surface area for 6x 8mm or 8x 6mm, the only possible difference is the vapor flow area. My guess is the vaporization area of the pipes is the limiting factor. Have you seen the test results of Thermalright\s new Macho Direct? for a Macho fin pack using only 5x 6mm pipes ground flat on one side using an aluminum base to hold them (base does not contact CPU IHS at all) it is quite impressive.
http://www.gamezoom.net/artikel/Thermalright_Macho_Direct_Test_Review-35070-2
Usual disclaimer about room ambient being used instead of cooler intake air temps. tongue.gif

Haha !

I guess I just feel things have come to a head more recently or at least I've only realized how stagnant it had become, Ive only been building and overclocking since late 2012 ish so youll have to forgive me wink.gif I had a look the die size has moved down on Intel quads from about 250 mm squared on the older 9xx series down to something like 124mm sqaured on Skylake. I think actually a lot of that is going to be extra cores on the iGPU as well, not sure how much of it is actually CPU these days. So yea thats going to get even harder to cool as the density goes up, need some imaginative thinking, or a much better way of spreading the heat onto an IHS.

I gather from an article I read a while ago they cant solder the smaller consumer chips anymore as the process size goes down, because theres a higher chance of cracking the die when they do so due to the temperatures involved. So, that doesnt really help. tongue.gif
post #26 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

I am wondering if we will see new super towers from Cyrorig, Noctua, Phanteks, Prolimatech, and the others.
I wonder if an LGA 2011 CPU would be able to better take advantage of this in that regard. The heatspreaders on the LGA 115X CPUs aren't that large at all.

The larger CPU size might help it out in that regard, although the size of the heatsink means that the first PCI-E slot (for GPUs) will not be usable.
If by 'heatspreaders' you mean the 'IHS'. 'IHS' is a misnomer They are so thin the do little over a few mm away from edge of CPU chip. The sizxe of IHS is dictated by the size of CPU PCB, not size of processor .. and the size of the PCB is dictated by area needed for connection terminals of CPU to motherboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

Yep, only the sides are angled. Can be hard to see as they haven't given us a direct frontal shot yet.
I'm trying to find some good images or drawings showing front or back views of these coolers, If you find some post a link to them.thumb.gif
post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

Haha !

I guess I just feel things have come to a head more recently or at least I've only realized how stagnant it had become, Ive only been building and overclocking since late 2012 ish so youll have to forgive me wink.gif I had a look the die size has moved down on Intel quads from about 250 mm squared on the older 9xx series down to something like 124mm sqaured on Skylake. I think actually a lot of that is going to be extra cores on the iGPU as well, not sure how much of it is actually CPU these days. So yea thats going to get even harder to cool as the density goes up, need some imaginative thinking, or a much better way of spreading the heat onto an IHS.

I gather from an article I read a while ago they cant solder the smaller consumer chips anymore as the process size goes down, because theres a higher chance of cracking the die when they do so due to the temperatures involved. So, that doesnt really help. tongue.gif
It's not the PCB and IHS size that makes the difference. As I just posted above, it's the actual chip size.

The shiny part on left is the actual CPU chip. On the right is the IHS that covers it. Same with 2nd image, but the black near the edges of IHS is lower area that mates with the PCB.
post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroCat View Post

Get both of them - Red,White & Blue theme combo. The big Phanteks twin towers make great vrm coolers. biggrin.gif

That's a thought. Actually why should I care about the colors at all? Have you seen pics of my rig? Classy it ain't.

Actually the Phantek should make a good VRM cooler as the fans are adjustable. I have a SA IBE Extreme. 8-6mm heat pipes and the fans locked in place. It cools the CPU well but the VRMs die from the heat because the fans are locked in place so the air flow goes over the top of their radiator. I wish it had 6-8mm pipes and adjustable fans, and even on the large FX CPU those outside pipes aren't doing much. In the meantime the Phantek is good enough I suppose. I want those bigger pipes because they have much better flow than the smaller pipes and might be able to handle the heat spikes better by reacting faster.

Oh, I don't buy used stuff and I don't deal with Amazon. Once burned twice shy. But I'm a slow learner and got turned into a crispy critter.
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post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

It's not the PCB and IHS size that makes the difference. As I just posted above, it's the actual chip size.

The shiny part on left is the actual CPU chip. On the right is the IHS that covers it. Same with 2nd image, but the black near the edges of IHS is lower area that mates with the PCB.

I do know that wink.gif I was taking the die size numbers from various articles you get when you Google Skylake die size for example.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9505/skylake-cpu-package-analysis

According to Anands article they measured Skylake 6700k at (9.05mmx13.52) about 122.4 mm squared, Haswell E 5960x is 356mm squared Vishera FX8 is 315mm. Those are the die sizes, the IHS is way bigger obviously then the die.

The iGPU is included in the die as well.

Thats why I wonder if the bigger/more heatpipes might come into play more on the larger dies, there's going to be much more contact area with the IHS towards the edges of it I would think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by miklkit View Post



Oh, I don't buy used stuff and I don't deal with Amazon. Once burned twice shy. But I'm a slow learner and got turned into a crispy critter.

Fair'nuff I wouldnt necessarily buy other components used, but part of the reason we're using these nice heat sinks is that theres not really many points of failure isnt it tongue.gif Your decision of course.
post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

I do know that wink.gif I was taking the die size numbers from various articles you get when you Google Skylake die size for example.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9505/skylake-cpu-package-analysis

According to Anands article they measured Skylake 6700k at (9.05mmx13.52) about 122.4 mm squared, Haswell E 5960x is 356mm squared Vishera FX8 is 315mm. Those are the die sizes, the IHS is way bigger obviously then the die.

The iGPU is included in the die as well.

Thats why I wonder if the bigger/more heatpipes might come into play more on the larger dies, there's going to be much more contact area with the IHS towards the edges of it I would think.
Sorry, I get so used to having to explain everything I sometimes miss the obvious signals that someone already knows. redface.gif
Indeed, the bigger the die the more advantageous more heatpipes can be. Especially the long ones if the heatpipes are oriented at right angle to the length of die. thumb.gif

Edit: Great link. Hadn't seen it before. Lots of good images and data to help others with! thumb.gif
Edited by doyll - 2/7/16 at 11:42am
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