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Who do people turn off Enhance Pointer Precision - Page 11

post #101 of 108
@ronnin426850:
Quote:
No acceleration + low sensitivity = high precision + NO utility

Prove that this is wrong: I am at low enough sensitivity that I achieve maximum possible precision both in 2D and 3D and I can conveniently move across my screen and turn 180° in-game. I am living proof (and so are the millions of other people that use 400cpi) that "NO utility" is a wrong assessment.
Quote:
No acceleration + high sensitivity = NO precision + high utility
Acceleration + high sensitivity = low precision + high utility.

So in one instance high sensitivity provides NO precision and in the other low precision? Your sentences themselves are proof that this is wrong.
Quote:
You can't express precision as "1:1"

Yes, you can. On a screen you move in pixels. Precision means being able to point to any pixel. At 1:1 your are able to point to any pixel. At 1:>1 you are not able to point to any pixel. >1:1 is not possible because the minimum movement the mouse can report is 1 count. If you are saying that Windows with EPP keeps mouse inputs in some kind of memory and adds them up until there are 10 or whatever before it moves the cursor by 1 pixel then you have to prove that is actually the case. Droppong counts would still be 1:1, it would only mean your cursor stops accurately correlating to your physical movement.

If you want us to agree on the "scientific and obvious Fact that EPP reduces sensitivity for slow movement" please provide scientific evidence. But after testing it now I agree that it is obvious. EPP reduces sensitivity for slow movement. I actually simply didn't know this and I will admit that does give your argument more validity. Refer to the next paragraph though.

What CPI do you use? Throughout this thread I brought something up the concept of a "threshold". I am able to move my cursor by 1 pixel at 400cpi. My ability to do so doesn't improve just by going to 100, 10 or 1cpi. I don't need acceleration to conveniently utilize 400cpi. Conclusion: I am at a threshold where I am as precise as I ever can or need to be and I still don't need acceleration to utilize this sensitivity. For me, enabling EPP would not provide anything useful but decrease precision for fast movements as I am increasingly skipping more pixels, i. e. increasingly scewing the 1:1 ratio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trism View Post

0x0 per se isn't a good indicator for this, it's the green/red colours combined.

> Are you saying MMR sees: Windows registered a mouse report, but it dropped the report as per EPP, so I will report 0x0 movement?
Windows registers the mouse movement, yes and it either drops it (dividing and rounding) which is seen at 0x0 in these cases. You can't move (1x1)/2. You move 1x1 and 0x0 in the next received 1x1 count for the 4/11 example.

> Either you provide evidence that EPP drops counts or I call BS. Not that that would make EPP better by any stretch; quite the opposite actually (admittedly it would give ronin's "perspective" a little more validity), but MMR is no evidence for that I don't think.
How can I give you evidence when you dismiss perfectly good evidence? Green = dividing, red = multiplying/adding when you move the mouse cursor at the desktop without hitting screen edges. For EPP: slowish speeds = a lot of green, fast speeds = a lot of red.

> I think I applied MarkC at some point, so I will have to undo that and measure my DPI. You should do the same. Use MouseTester. Easy enough to see whether or not we are dropping counts with EPP.
No need to do anything except remove the MarkC fix. You can literally feel it immediately.
You are right, EPP does appear to drop counts at low speeds. I just wouldn't deem MMR perfectly good evidence - but it is indeed immediately obvious when enabling EPP. Now, again, does that improve precision? Not if I am already precise enough, which I am. And was that not the case rather than enabling EPP I would reduce my CPI as then there are no dropped counts at low speeds and no skipped pixels at high speeds.

But yeah, I concede that this is something I did not know, that ronnin426850 probably meant (but never really expressed properly, the contrary actually - both sides of the argument throughout assumed we were talking about lowering sensitivity (i. e. CPI) to achieve more precision as far as I can tell) and that does give EPP some type of benefit that I ignorantly disregarded for a simple lack of knowledge. Now I would still be interested in actualities of this function. How many counts are dropped, does this happen linearly?
post #102 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogdud View Post

I think you are confusing precision for control. All this animosity seems to be just miscommunication.

Precision in sensor terms would ideally confer the direct control of the cursor in relation to the movement of the mouse. Control, would be the ability to effectively influence the cursor to movement physically where you desire. In all of your examples you are demonstrating that epp is giving you more control over your movements, effectively nullifying undesired movement that would normally be present if the sensor were allowed to be more accurate. You (incorrectly) perceive this as "precision" when in fact it is the opposite.

In your example, software created for consumers with tremors or Parkinson's disease, that smooths out random inputs from their hands shaking, in an effort to make smoother lines (because they lack the physical ability to control the outbursts) would be making their movements more "precise". But it is not, it is effectively throwing out the undesired movements. That may mean that the line they intend to draw is smoother, or it's easier to hit a certain point on the screen, but it also means the sensor is *less* precise, because it is throwing out some of the actual data from the sensor input.

I get that you're trying to say with epp on, you have better control over the sensor's input. But that is not precision.

One thing I think we can all agree on, is that they absolutely named the function in a deceptive way. They should have called it, well, something else.

I see where the misunderstanding may come from. I'm not talking about sensor precision. I'm talking about precision like when operating with power tools. Or like when coloring a color book - you don't want to cross the lines smile.gif EPP helps a lot with that, because it lowers the sensitivity when you go slow.
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post #103 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAGGARD View Post

You are right, EPP does appear to drop counts at low speeds. I just wouldn't deem MMR perfectly good evidence - but it is indeed immediately obvious when enabling EPP. Now, again, does that improve precision? Not if I am already precise enough, which I am. And was that not the case rather than enabling EPP I would reduce my CPI as then there are no dropped counts at low speeds and no skipped pixels at high speeds.

But yeah, I concede that this is something I did not know, that ronnin426850 probably meant (but never really expressed properly, the contrary actually - both sides of the argument throughout assumed we were talking about lowering sensitivity (i. e. CPI) to achieve more precision as far as I can tell) and that does give EPP some type of benefit that I ignorantly disregarded for a simple lack of knowledge. Now I would still be interested in actualities of this function. How many counts are dropped, does this happen linearly?
Hehe, typically the first thing that is turned off from Windows so it's quite understandable if the function of the EPP isn't really that known. I apologize my rude comments from earlier. I have personally no idea how the curves themselves work and there doesn't really seem to be that much information available.
post #104 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

I see where the misunderstanding may come from. I'm not talking about sensor precision. I'm talking about precision like when operating with power tools. Or like when coloring a color book - you don't want to cross the lines smile.gif EPP helps a lot with that, because it lowers the sensitivity when you go slow.

Indeed, I think this is where the confusion probably came from. I think if most people got that impression from the start they may not have gotten so hung up on all the rest. People on /mouse are really hung up on sensors and everything related (which is to be expected I suppose). Saying you prefer to have software take any kind of control (even if it's beneficial to you or your specific task ) sends some of the hardcore folks right to the pitchfork store.. wink.gif
post #105 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post

nevermind, whatever, I'm fed up with this, I said everything I had to say, bye.
I was just starting to cut you some slack though. redface.gif

"EPP decreases sensitivity at low speeds" - That statement is valid. If you had clarified this from the beginning I would have agreed (or rather: apologized afterwards). Presumably you did mean this, but your wording left people no possibility but to misunderstand. Especially me because I didnt actually know about this "reverse acceleration" property of EPP. My statements about "maximum precision" and "maximum effective precision" remain, and it remains that EPP introduces imprecision in fast movements and that dropping counts is an inferior way of reducing sensitivity than reducing CPI or the in-game sensitivity, and the stuff I said about thresholds, but I will apologize for not looking into EPP myself and ignorantly assuming I knew how it functions without testing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trism View Post

Hehe, typically the first thing that is turned off from Windows so it's quite understandable if the function of the EPP isn't really that known. I apologize my rude comments from earlier. I have personally no idea how the curves themselves work and there doesn't really seem to be that much information available.
I'm actually using EPP right now. I haven't disabled it since reverting the MarkC fix just now. And dare I say I quite like it? Dare I ask: Why indeed do people disable EPP? It is pretty convenient for desktop use and in-game I use raw input either way. In games, I don't like acceleration (even when linear and possible to get used to) and don't like the idea of dropping counts at low and increasing the rotation angles at high speed, but on my desktop? I find acceleration convenient there and I don't care about skipped pixels or dropped counts because I don't do anything too precision-demanding in 2D anyways.

So yeah, I might end up keeping EPP enabled... So, uh, thank you, I guess? tongue.gif
Edited by HAGGARD - 2/9/16 at 7:33am
post #106 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon26 View Post

Why do most people turn "Enhance Pointer Precision" in the mouse settings in the control panel? When its on my mouse feels smooth and very easy to control. When I turn it off my mouse seems to do its own thing, very easy to miss click or aim. It just doesn't feel as balanced when its off. I know there is a reason people turn it off but not sure why. I seem to aim a lot better with it on. I guess I am saying it feels more in control with it ON as opposed to OFF.

Enhance pointer precision hides issues by moving your cursor extra slow, when you move the mouse slowly, effectively lowering your mouse's DPI. (and moving it faster when you do a quick move, increasing DPI.)

Turning off the option means that your mouse stays at the same DPI, regardless of the speed at which you move the cursor/physical mouse.

One of my 5 euro mice has an issue where the cursor jumps around quite abit on slow moves, so I can see that hiding that issue with dynamic DPI would help. But my gaming mouse doesn't have such problems. Nor do most mice, on a decently suited surface.

You definitely get more control with lower DPI. So I guess it's useful, depending on how much you can handle the dynamic DPI.
Edited by Tivan - 2/9/16 at 10:23am
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post #107 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAGGARD View Post

I was just starting to cut you some slack though. redface.gif

"EPP decreases sensitivity at low speeds" - That statement is valid. If you had clarified this from the beginning I would have agreed (or rather: apologized afterwards). Presumably you did mean this, but your wording left people no possibility but to misunderstand. Especially me because I didnt actually know about this "reverse acceleration" property of EPP. My statements about "maximum precision" and "maximum effective precision" remain, and it remains that EPP introduces imprecision in fast movements and that dropping counts is an inferior way of reducing sensitivity than reducing CPI or the in-game sensitivity, and the stuff I said about thresholds, but I will apologize for not looking into EPP myself and ignorantly assuming I knew how it functions without testing it.
I'm actually using EPP right now. I haven't disabled it since reverting the MarkC fix just now. And dare I say I quite like it? Dare I ask: Why indeed do people disable EPP? It is pretty convenient for desktop use and in-game I use raw input either way. In games, I don't like acceleration (even when linear and possible to get used to) and don't like the idea of dropping counts at low and increasing the rotation angles at high speed, but on my desktop? I find acceleration convenient there and I don't care about skipped pixels or dropped counts because I don't do anything too precision-demanding in 2D anyways.

So yeah, I might end up keeping EPP enabled... So, uh, thank you, I guess? tongue.gif

You are welcome. Sorry for overreacting from time to time.
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post #108 of 108
Wow people have weird definitions of precision. Precision is consistency of outputs for a given input. In the case of a mouse this would mean if I move it 1.00000 inches it always gives me x counts and moves the cursor x pixels. That implies no acceleration. Accuracy is how close something is to the true value. If I set my mouse to 400cpi and move it 1.00000" and it gives me 433 counts/ pixels every time it is precise not accurate. If it gives me 400+-5 counts/pixels it is accurate not precise. That is from the mouse side of things. Seeing as a mouse is basically a tool to measure distance acceleration makes it imprecise from that standpoint.

Changing cpi is just putting a multiplier on the precision of the person using the mouse. If I have 1mm precision with my hand movement I would only have pixel precision of my cursor movement below 250cpi assuming 1 pixel per count. If you add in acceleration my precision is now less than or equal to 1 pixel precision because there is a whole new factor of not only my spacial precision, but how precise my velocity is and unless I am infinitely precise with my velocity I lose precision and also since the effective cpi is going up at higher velocity my 1mm spacial precision has a larger multiplier when converting it to some measure of precision in pixels.

From both standpoints enhanced pointer precision is a misnomer.
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