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Why you should probably not buy a CLC cooler - Page 10

post #91 of 474
xioros
While I can agree more data would be nice, many of us have done comparison testing and case to the same conclusion; that CLCs are a waste of money. Imperfect data doesn't change that.


ciarlatano
The fact they use an open air test system but don't actually monitor cooler intake air temp is not perfect, but it sure beats reviews in cases using room ambient and not monitoring the cooler intake air temps, meaning all we have is how their systems perform with different coolers and not how the coolers actually perform. Even a well ventilated case like yours was 8-9c warmer than the room you were testing in. The fact your testing system was not hotter with air coolers is an anomaly I can't explain. biggrin.gif
Sure wish I could. redface.gif
post #92 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

xioros
While I can agree more data would be nice, many of us have done comparison testing and case to the same conclusion; that CLCs are a waste of money. Imperfect data doesn't change that.


ciarlatano
The fact they use an open air test system but don't actually monitor cooler intake air temp is not perfect, but it sure beats reviews in cases using room ambient and not monitoring the cooler intake air temps, meaning all we have is how their systems perform with different coolers and not how the coolers actually perform. Even a well ventilated case like yours was 8-9c warmer than the room you were testing in. The fact your testing system was not hotter with air coolers is an anomaly I can't explain. biggrin.gif
Sure wish I could. redface.gif

I'm sorry for the choice of words, but that's kind of a bullcrap answer. I stated valid reasons why buying them would be interesting other than temperatures. You just completely ignore them.

Yes, they are "low bang4buck" in terms of cooling. But this is OCN, there are more factors than "temperatures in open air". I'm under the impression this discussion is more of an "ego-case" where is more important to press your opinion in people's faces than actually discussing the arguments.

The once great OCN is becoming more and more like the average internet argument... Sigh.
   
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post #93 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by xioros View Post

I'm sorry for the choice of words, but that's kind of a bullcrap answer. I stated valid reasons why buying them would be interesting other than temperatures. You just completely ignore them.

Yes, they are "low bang4buck" in terms of cooling. But this is OCN, there are more factors than "temperatures in open air". I'm under the impression this discussion is more of an "ego-case" where is more important to press your opinion in people's faces than actually discussing the arguments.

The once great OCN is becoming more and more like the average internet argument... Sigh.
Your opening two lines set the tone for my reply
Quote:
I think the "guide" (first post) is biased and not realistic. I completely agree with freedom of speach, but I think you should outline more that this is your opinion (and that you should also mention the pros for CLCs, not only the contras)

And your reply to me now isn't much better. You might want to change the wording as a mode will give you a warning for profanity as it is now.

I see no justifiable reason to use CLC when there is rarely if ever a situation that 'requires' their use. Users claim it's to clear ram, or because their cases are too small or some other lame excuse, when there are plenty of good small cases and good small air cooler and good ram without the big tall heat spreaders that are serve no practical function except looking nice to some people.

If you want to use CLCs that is all fine and good. But please don't try to justify with other rational.
post #94 of 474
Nicely done article. Well written, articulate, and backed up with quantifiable data.
I bought the H50 some years ago. While it was better than the AMD heat pipe cooler that it replaced; I was not impressed with its performance. Therefore I went to a full custom water cooler. Again, there was some gain over the Corsair cooler but not the gains I was hoping for. It wasn't until I built my geothermal loop that I realized the cooling gains that I was hoping for. Had it not been for the geothermal loop I would have probably considered going back to an air cooler for many of the reasons that you pointed out. Of course that's out of the question now as I'm in the process of building a 12,000 BTU chiller box to house my loop and computer. biggrin.gif
post #95 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaded War View Post

You are comparing it to your rear exhausted single GPU rig and I was posting my worst temps I ever had as an example.

That was with two modded and overclocked 7970's that had custom internally exhausted heatsinks and my H100i radiator set as exhaust at the top of the case. So the H100i taking the heat of two top end GPUs and CPU through it and maintained temps under 65°C.
Pic (Click to show)

With a single GTX 970 in my rig, the temperature is much lower than the 65°C I mentioned. It would be even lower than it is now with a reference cooler like you have.
If you looked closer you will see a modded GTX670 which is not exhaust to rear.
After seeing your case 600T, the front intake is quiet poor. That 200mm fan is just terrible. Reason for the higher temps you got, even if you went with a single 970.

I had H100, H105, H60 and a few others too see how well they worked. I know they didn't last long in my systems for more than a 3 months.
Tried well too many different cooling just for the kicks. Always all of them, I either went back to Swiftech AIO or air cooling.
2 major reasons, noise and performance was worse or no difference.
    
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post #96 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp33d Junki3 View Post

If you looked closer you will see a modded GTX670 which is not exhaust to rear.
After seeing your case 600T, the front intake is quiet poor. That 200mm fan is just terrible. Reason for the higher temps you got, even if you went with a single 970.

I had H100, H105, H60 and a few others too see how well they worked. I know they didn't last long in my systems for more than a 3 months.
Tried well too many different cooling just for the kicks. Always all of them, I either went back to Swiftech AIO or air cooling.
2 major reasons, noise and performance was worse or no difference.

Those are old pictures. All the fans were replaced and HDD cage were removed a long time ago when I modded the 7970s.

Anyway, that is some rotten luck on the CLCs you had. I personally would never use a single 120mm CLC over an air cooler but the 105 and 100 should have been good to go. Mine has been running for 3 years of steady use without issue.

I'm curious what you mean by noise. Do you mean the included fans? My pump is nearly silent. The only way I can hear it is to open my case and hold my ear right up to it.
post #97 of 474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaded War View Post

I'm curious what you mean by noise. Do you mean the included fans? My pump is nearly silent. The only way I can hear it is to open my case and hold my ear right up to it.
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post #98 of 474
Nearly silent or masked by the hum and whine of G1's 1600rpm minimum fan speed?
   
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post #99 of 474
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xioros View Post

I think the "guide" (first post) is biased and not realistic. I completely agree with freedom of speach, but I think you should outline more that this is your opinion (and that you should also mention the pros for CLCs, not only the contras)

You've taken 1 comparison from air coolers vs CLCs, in which the air cooler comes out very well. Tweaktown tests them in an open-air environment (InWIn S-frame). 95% of the cases has far less airflow.

The problem is, however, that these tests are not always representative: case airflow is a major factor (like many others have already pointed out). An other important aspect is the amount of heat. Air coolers work great until a certain point of heat (in Watt): the point where the heat-pipes become the bottleneck in heat transfer. Reviews have shown that CLC's perform better than top-of-the-line air coolers at high heat outputs.

There are other arguments for CLCs:
Size: not all cases can easily fit a big cooler like the NH-D15 (which you use for comparison)
Installation: Most CLC's are very easy to install (at least the Corsair hydro's I've worked with)
Heat management: high amounts of heat are transferred more easily by water than by heat-pipes.
Aesthetics: Many people prefer a clean AIO over a bulky air cooler
Require the same maintenance as air coolers (just blow out dust): A LOT LESS compared to custom loops.

As for the "lower chances of failure", while it is true, the chance that an AIO fails is still very low.
Yes, there are some people who complained about leaks, pump failures, but this is a very small percentage out of those use them.

Yes, they are expensive, but so are Titans: people still buy.
As for cooling, temperatures: I'd love to see a comparison of a H100i GTX (with Gentle Typhoons) vs an ND-H15 in an NZXT S340 with an overclocked 5820K and aftermarket GTX 980 Ti.

The problem with your argument is that CLCs have to do better in a closed case environment than the top towers.

This is not the case. HTL does its own tests:
http://www.hitechlegion.com/reviews/cooling/heatsinks/39941-noctua-nh-d15-cpu-cooler-review?showall=1&limitstart=

In a case (by the way, the gap remains. Not only now is the CLC doing worse noise wise, the temperature actually increases.


Adjust for noise:


The H100i is now still 6 dB louder, but also 7 degrees C hotter.

Read the article and note their testing methods. I like the way HTL has done it in that it reflects real world testing data. You could even argue that by using the (admittedly far from perfect) Tweaktown data, I may have even overstated the performance of CLCs. Most places use completely open air, which is not realistic at all.

Actually, I'm thinking about editing my post to add the HTL data.
Edited by CrazyElf - 2/9/16 at 4:11pm
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post #100 of 474
I've used a Corsair H100 (the originally released) for over four years now to cool a 5ghz daily 2700K that I still use today at the same speed. Prior to that and for many years, I used giant air coolers TRUE, etc. By far they required much greater attention to case air flow, much higher fan speeds at the cooler level and overall resulted in a far noiser system than my current rig which, despite it's age, I just haven't found any reason to upgrade ... even since installing dual 980's in SLI ... there just isn't that much of a bottle neck.

I'll never put another giant, behemoth air cooler in my case again. The amount of space available for other peripherals (not to mention generally a better looking interior), the improved overall case air flow and the really great low fan performance of even my super old Corsair H100 just makes me cringe to think about putting one of those obnoxiously huge, tower type air coolers in anything I build. But by far the dated H100 has been a far more effective, far more enjoyable, far more space efficient cooling solution that my old TRUE (which I really liked) or the Scythe Infinity before it ... I still have the TRUE if anybody wants it LOL ...

I'll take my chances with leaks and truth be told, I haven't heard of many cases of such.

Next build will have a custom loop, though ...
    
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