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[ExtremeTech]An end to scaling: Intel’s next-generation chips will sacrifice speed to reduce power - Page 14

post #131 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip Boy View Post

Developers are NOT making full and proper use of multiple cores. A paradigm shift in programming is required but developers and publishers only care about how much they can make in as short a time, which is not helping. That will come to an end as muticore processing has been the future since AMD released the first consumer dual core chip. Software developers expect hardware developers to keep increasing IPC just because they can't be bothered to change their coding.

Their mantra is: it's too hard so we're not doing it. The horse shoe is too hard to make, stick to walking. Refining oil is too hard, stick to horse riding. Making proper multi piston engines is too hard, stick to single piston. They all took years to develop but were inevitable. The sooner software developers and coders adapt the better.


As for gaming, we have seen how making proper use of multiple cores can seriously benefit gaming as Just Cause 3 (and another game released lately whose I can't remember) has shown.
Some of it is Amdahl's law, some of it is expected RoI, some of it is writing a lot of code before realizing that this specific loop is going to be the slowest one, and needing to refactor a couple years of work to split it into two threads instead of optimizing that loop to run faster on one thread.

I'll give you a really simplistic example of that last issue(even ignoring all the refactoring). Say you're given the task to sum all the integers X through Y, and you implement it as a loop. Now say it's a couple years later and you're a lot more CPU constrained than you used to be, so it's time to optimize it, You could split it into say 4 threads, each summing 1/4 of these numbers before returning and summing those 4 results, but that's not the best option, the best option would be to evaluate (X+Y)*(|Y-X|+1)/2, which would run faster on 1 thread than the previous implementation split over however many cores you want to use. (except for very small ranges).
Edited by TranquilTempest - 2/11/16 at 1:10pm
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post #132 of 161
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Originally Posted by mypcisugly View Post

Enthusiast PC Gamers are 30- 35 Percent of the market and spend almost 125 billion in a year just in 2015 alone so i think we do matter the only people that they make more money from servers +server parts

Your analogy isn't wrong perse but it's a bit exaggerated. I'd be happy to hear about your definition of an enthousiast for one.

My guesstimate is that people like, you and I, are more like the Ferrari/Porsche owners than the slightly better than average car owners.

In both cases profit margins are big but profit overall, is not. When taking into account the volume of the sales.
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post #133 of 161
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Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

Your analogy isn't wrong perse but it's a bit exaggerated. I'd be happy to hear about your definition of an enthousiast for one.

My guesstimate is that people like, you and I, are more like the Ferrari/Porsche owners than the slightly better than average car owners.

In both cases profit margins are big but profit overall, is not. When taking into account the volume of the sales.
just a jeep guy here biggrin.gif its not like they make big profit of of bare bones pc they sell to company's they sell at almost no profit to get in there .. selling servers and parts for them they make a big money and and people like us they make a killing on also .. like i said people like us and others that bought retail parts this does take in mind keyboards mice water cooling aio coolers and normal water cooling and case and fans heat sinks ect ect ..it does add up just not volume but in money
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post #134 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypcisugly View Post

Enthusiast PC Gamers are 30- 35 Percent of the market and spend almost 125 billion in a year just in 2015 alone so i think we do matter the only people that they make more money from servers +server parts

Your analogy isn't wrong perse but it's a bit exaggerated. I'd be happy to hear about your definition of an enthousiast for one.

My guesstimate is that people like, you and I, are more like the Ferrari/Porsche owners than the slightly better than average car owners.

In both cases profit margins are big but profit overall, is not. When taking into account the volume of the sales.

Enthusiast is someone who doesn't buy an OEM PC and builds their own or buys a custom PC with better than the lowest quality components. The margins on higher end parts is enormous. The price Intel command for K over non-K shows how much they earn.

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post #135 of 161
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Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Enthusiast is someone who doesn't buy an OEM PC and builds their own or buys a custom PC with better than the lowest quality components.
thats too broad, that would include entry/budget builders that aren't exactly aiming for poor quality parts.
what you're relating to is simply "custom builders" in the most general category.
then you can further split them off by parts tier their often aim for, and how often they upgrade.

rather, "enthusiast" in a sense should be related to GPU/CPU hierarchy.
e.g.
entry = GTX750 / i3 2core-4thread
mid-tier = GTX950~GTX960 / i5 4core-4thread
high-tier = GTX970~GTX980 / i7 4core-8thread
enthusiast = GTX980Ti~Titan / LGA2011

so in this case, enthusiasts would often target GTX980Ti tier GPUs, and LGA2011 tier platforms.
but that doesn't mean enthusiasts won't extend down, rather you'd look at their spending habits.
e.g. an enthusiast can aim for an i7 4core-8thread and pair it with GTX980Ti then do a custom loop in an SFF build.
which means to say an enthusiast can be considered by how much they're willing to pay for their rig or rigs.

i'd say:
entry builders should be <$1000
mid-tier builders should be $1000~$1500
high-end builders should be $1500~$2000
enthusiast builders should be $2000+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

The margins on higher end parts is enormous. The price Intel command for K over non-K shows how much they earn.
that is not true, the margin intel gains for the desktop consumer market is minimal, compared to the +$1000~+$3000 per chip margin they gain on E5 and E7 xeons.
plus, the K SKUs they have on desktops are the extreme minority, they get more bins for the locked chips and E3 xeon chips.

e.g. theres only i7-4790K and i7-4770K on the Haswell i7-K SKUs or unlocked 4core-8thread SKUs in general.
but theres i7-4790, i7-4790S, i7-4790T, i7-4785T, i7-4771, i7-4770, i7-4770S, i7-4770T, i7-4770TE, i7-4765T, E3-1230 v3, E3-1230L v3, E3-1231 v3, E3-1240 v3, E3-1240L v3, E3-1241 v3, E3-1245 v3, etc.

so what if both i7-4790K and i7-4770K have 50% more margin than the rest of the chip? its like 5% of Intel's full line-up, what they earn from the K SKUs are a drop in the bucket.
Edited by epic1337 - 2/11/16 at 8:15pm
post #136 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

thats too broad, that would include entry/budget builders that aren't exactly aiming for poor quality parts.
what you're relating to is simply "custom builders" in the most general category.
then you can further split them off by parts tier their often aim for, and how often they upgrade.

rather, "enthusiast" in a sense should be related to GPU/CPU hierarchy.
e.g.
entry = GTX750 / i3 2core-4thread
mid-tier = GTX950~GTX960 / i5 4core-4thread
high-tier = GTX970~GTX980 / i7 4core-8thread
enthusiast = GTX980Ti~Titan / LGA2011

so in this case, enthusiasts would often target GTX980Ti tier GPUs, and LGA2011 tier platforms.
but that doesn't mean enthusiasts won't extend down, rather you'd look at their spending habits.
e.g. an enthusiast can aim for an i7 4core-8thread and pair it with GTX980Ti then do a custom loop.
which means to say an enthusiasts can be considered by how much they're willing to pay for their rig or rigs.

i'd say:
entry builders should be <$1000
mid-tier builders should be $1000~$1500
high-end builders should be $1500~$2000
enthusiast builders should be $2000+
that is not true, the margin intel gains for the desktop consumer market is minimal, compared to the +$1000~+$3000 per chip margin they gain on E5 and E7 xeons.
Please fix this. i3 is not low tier, in fact it is no tier at all. APU's beat i3's in Project Cars which use 5 threads pretty much the whole time. i3 is stuttery. For the exact timemark where this is stated: [Source@19:58]

Edited by mtcn77 - 2/11/16 at 7:52pm
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post #137 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Please fix this. i3 is not low tier, in fact it is no tier at all. APU's beat i3's in Project Cars which use 5 threads pretty much the whole time. i3 is stuttery. For the exact timemark where this is stated:

funny, that wasn't the point.
post #138 of 161
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Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

funny, that wasn't the point.
You could perhaps discontinue talking in hypotheticals. Someone might take the points too literally.
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post #139 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

You could perhaps discontinue talking in hypotheticals. Someone might take the points too literally.

an i3 is still an entry tier though, much like G3528 is also an entry tier chip.
by point and logic, the definition of entry tier is simply "enough to be of use", hence the word "entry".

but for your sake, lets say both G3528 and i3s are at the bottom rung of the entry tier, while AMD's APUs are better off.
Edited by epic1337 - 2/11/16 at 8:08pm
post #140 of 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

an i3 is still an entry tier though, much like G3528 is also an entry tier chip.
but for your sake, lets say both G3528 and i3s are at the bottom rung of the entry tier, while AMD's APUs are better off.
Perfect. We wouldn't want nasty surprises down the line.
What else, I think you are a bit overthinking it. While there are clear cases when differentiation is hard between the tiers, they almost always come with their attached opportunity costs.
Take the i3 6100 for instance: in this review, it can clearly take on the i5 6500, but the hardware to do it in actuality costs as much as i5 6500's surcharge itself. In the single title that i3 6100 beats i5 6500 - GTA V - I think it would be too hasty to appoint i3 to a higher tier just because it can beat a stray i5 6500 with rock bottom 2133 mhz ddr4, using the best peripheral equipments.
[Source@1:46]

Elsewise, I think this tiering structure does not hold much water in that RoTR runs better on hardware lower than the LGA2011 tier since the optimizations are likely based on the newest architecture and only the current ones cut it.
Edited by mtcn77 - 2/11/16 at 8:42pm
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