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[Techinsider] China just hit a nuclear fusion milestone - Page 6

post #51 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

China don't care about the patents, about huge corporations fighting each other like children.
When an academic institute wants to do something in china, or a technology advancement based on patented US tech is being developed there, they aren't asking for permission.
They are also decently loose in terms of what is allowed or not allowed to research.

This is the main reason why a lot of advancements are being done there.


Yeah there is less regulation on research and development. The patent system doesn't hamper them whatsoever. It must be nice! If we do achieve nuclear fusion in the next 20 years it will be a huge boom in energy production for an ever increasing energy hungry world.
 
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post #52 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

That is not a great idea - solar and wind do not have anywhere near the energy density required. Also, they may not actually be cheaper in terms of cost per MWh.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Put it this way - Morocco (where I happen to be at the moment) just opened Noor I, the world's largest solar power plant, in the Sahara desert. It covers 1,000 acres of desert and generates 160MW. It can generate power for 20 hours of the day, as it uses a molten salt bath to store heat into the night.

So that means it can generate 3,200MWh per day, or 1,168,000 MWh/year, assuming it can manage its peak production 20 hours of every day, with no downtime.

The USA consumed 4,686,400,000 MWh in 2013 according to the DoE. That means it would take 4,012 Noor I's to power the USA - assuming some form of battery technology could allow for peak demand and overnight demand (a big assumption).

4,012 Noor I's would take up 4,012,000 acres, or an area a little larger than Connecticut, to power the US. And that is assuming said area has the same amount of sun as the Sahara desert.

As for cost - Noor I cost about $9Bn. 4,012 of them will cost $36Tn... a sizable chunk of money.


Solar and wind plants are a good idea, and we should certainly pursue them where possible, but they currently can't provide all our energy needs.

Nope, but they could provide energy for a large area of the United States. The entire midwest region is basically large open plains in lightly populated rural areas. For those places, I can see wind plants being more cost effective.
post #53 of 85
Please go to Iowa and talk to people who live near those wind turbines. They have a lot more issues than most people would think. In Missouri we have a big power issue because we don't have enough sunny days for solar, not enough open flat land (only a few counties near Nebraska/Iowa border) for wind farms, we don't have coal, and the people in ColumbiaMO keep blocking any attempt to add reactors to the nuclear plant in Fulton.

Iowa produces most of its power from wind farms but they cost alot to maintain and produce alot of noise pollution. They also kill a ton of birds, including endangered Eagles.
post #54 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by IntoxicatedPuma View Post

Please go to Iowa and talk to people who live near those wind turbines. They have a lot more issues than most people would think. In Missouri we have a big power issue because we don't have enough sunny days for solar, not enough open flat land (only a few counties near Nebraska/Iowa border) for wind farms, we don't have coal, and the people in ColumbiaMO keep blocking any attempt to add reactors to the nuclear plant in Fulton.

Iowa produces most of its power from wind farms but they cost alot to maintain and produce alot of noise pollution. They also kill a ton of birds, including endangered Eagles.

Fair points I didn't consider.
post #55 of 85
so the major players are, Germany, China, and Locheed for the US?

How big are the chambers from Germany and CHina? Lockheed is boasting that the sucker will fit on the back on a truck



Personally im holding out for the Shizuma Drive thumb.gif
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post #56 of 85

A lot of the more promising technologies are developed by military or big companies and are kept secret, so we can not really judge, who are ahead or how much each nation or company do.


Edited by G woodlogger - 2/10/16 at 11:00am
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post #57 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerPowered View Post

China is catching up fast both economy and technology wise. I wonder if at some point their economy overtakes the US economy, as they become the new center of the world and everyone invests in their stock market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

At their current growth rate and our (the US current growth rate) before the end of the next decade they will overtake us in GDP. GDP per capita is going to take a bit longer, but don't be surprised if by 2050 China is the best country to live in in the world.

the US GDP is currently 18.3 TR with a growth rate of 2 to 3% China GDP is 12.4 TR with a growth rate of 6 to 8% They're already the second largest economy on the planet.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but China already IS the largest economy in the world due to many different factors. China also continues to leave the US behind more rapidly in the last year.

Here's a nice breakdown for you.

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post #58 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

They're actually going into a mild recession right now, the numbers aren't all accurate so as an economist I can't really say what is the total cause of it, but unfettered growth and the yuan not being able to float is part of the problem. Their debt to GDP ratio isn't nearly as bad as the US or EU. They also OWN a lot of debt so they could call that in. One thing is for certain. Supply isn't the only thing keeping oil low. The demand for oil in China has dropped significantly since November.

As far as the pollution goes. Our Industrialized pollution was actually worse. The technology being used in coal fired plants, even the Chinese ones, is MUCH cleaner than what was being used from 1880 to 1950 in the United States. The Pittsburgh situation is only one of many in the iron belt. NYC was so polluted in the summer of 1966 you couldn't see.
http://www.businessinsider.com/manhattan-smog-photos-1966-2013-1

I'm well aware, my wife is Chinese, and my in-laws don't even speak english. The recession China is in now is much more of a controlled bust which their style of investment is bound to repeat. Of course, this time PRC is controlling the falling bust with infusions of government cash reserves. It is likely with all the MAJOR absolutely MASSIVE anti-corruption work going on in China right now, there will soon be some measure of limits put on the investments in terms of acceptable risk for certain types of investments. How that all ends up being done is something which will be interesting to watch. Regardless, it doesn't reduce the viability of the Chinese economy, and interestingly the malleability of the Chinese market due to government intervention or shading is quickly decreasing over time as China positions its markets for international availability, with the caveat that china will always have trade surpluses to their benefit.

I was using Pittsburgh as a singular example, it was just one of the many cities with horrible pollution but I didn't see any reason to belabor the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

Not to get political on you but China uses the exact same electoral system the U.S. does to elect their president. Yes they only have one party (technically they have 7), but guess what? So does the U.S. Dems and Repubs funded by the same corps bud. =) My Minor is in political science and one of my senior thesis was on China's electoral system. They literally elect presidents EXACTLY the same way we do, the electoral college. Electors vote them in. Is it a sham? Yeah, but so is the American electoral system.


Trust me bud, this is the Chinese Century.

The relief is palpable. It is incredibly refreshing to see someone using their brain and facts instead of relying on ethnocentric wives tales and seriously OLD propaganda. Ideologically the Chinese government and the US are diametrically opposed, yet in reality on many issues, policies and operating procedures it is very difficult to spot any differences whatsoever. Hell congress has even introduced legislation which is entirely based on the Great Firewall and other Chinese censorship advancements, citing them as "success stories".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Nuclear fusion is not nuclear fission. Fusion does not produce the same long term radioactive products that fission does.

Even in the case of nuclear fission, that long-lived waste can actually be turned into fuel. Spent uranium can be put into fast reactors, where they're broken down into elements with much shorter half lives (measured in decades and centuries instead of millenia or longer, with the bulk of the most radioactive material being almost completely decayed in the first hundred years). Fast reactors are able to produce up to 10 times more power from the same fuel as compared to traditional nuclear reactors.

Those that are concerned generally are also very ignorant when it comes to nuclear knowledge. Unfortunately, those same people also tend to stick their fingers in their ears at any attempt to educate them about nuclear power.
I don't think there are any current active projects based in the US, but there are projects in Europe that do receive US funding.

This. *MMMMMMAMMMMMMMAMMMMMAMMMMM* I CAN'T HEAR YOU! US Education system has been overhauled to create dupable lemmings who chug down whatever propaganda or outright lies corporatocracy wants to promote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntoxicatedPuma View Post

China does not the same electoral system. They have practically no election system to speak of. At least in the US money can buy you a chance at being President, in China it can only get you support of party members in high places.

In US the electoral college performs totally different from the Chinese system, maybe on paper its similar but China doesn't function on rule of law or precedent, it only functions on the whims of the leadership at that given time.

Actually, on paper there are a few similarities, but the government styles generally are vastly different. He is correct on the electoral process for the president, but you are reading too far into his statement to try to make a sweeping pronouncement. It's the implementation which ends up being much more difficult to classify, where many of the theoretical details don't have a lot of practical differences when you get to actually running a government for humans and by humans.

Also, see below.*

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntoxicatedPuma View Post

The US leadership has power dispersed over a larger number of officials, by the time one can get enough support from other leaders he is already out of office or publically unpopular.

Point is, at least in the US people can chose to vote or not, in China you don't have a choice. Even two or three bad choices is better than none, and you also have the right to protest your poor choices in the US. Try that in China and see how it turns out

Farce. Leaving political views out of this, there is one candidate whom by appearances is not representing the corporatocracy, and the media engine run by them is doing everything it can to defame, deface and denounce said politician. Agree with the political views of this person or not, it is interesting to watch the struggle against the current owners of the government unfold.

*Interestingly, you might be thoroughly surprised to find out that your input into the operation of the US government has almost no tangible value. Sure, you can vote for a president, congressman and senator, but the vast majority of the government roles and employees are not open for your input. The government our constitution created, has been dwarfed by the bloat present in executive branch in the form of countless agencies with acronyms. The true power and operation of the government lies in those agencies. The only issues executed by the elected officials you vote for is an infinitesimally small portion of the tasks the government carries out. All true power in the government has been abstracted away from the elected bodies, and the leaders of the elected government are mostly just handled by the agencies who conduct the day to day business of the US Government, on behalf of those elected bodies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandora51 View Post

What has any of this to do with fusion?
In fact germany has almost abandoned nuclear energy and yet it is doing research for fusion.
Maybe because it is really that bad? It is not only a view from concerned individuals. It is the truth.
The issue is that nuclear power is cheap and efficient but in the end it is dangeroues, needs just aswell ressources and produces waste.

However nuclear fusion could be our hope for clean and unlimted energy.

Fission is not bad, 60 year old technology that a company is no longer able to update to current technology due to lawsuits is bad, especially if said technology uses dangerous substances like Uranium-235.

Education is paramount, pull the fingers out of your ears and LEARN!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayford5 View Post

Exactly but people don't understand that. They still are thinking of the old 50s tech that created much waste. The congress and the people of the US can't seem to move their thinking into the 21st century. That is why we have zero projects because people are scared of the old tech that created Chernobyl. Even though that wasn't even a nuclear issue that was human error. The US is done for now in this aspect because of older politicians and a public who can't think passed what they know.

Again, those were not my views. Those views were from some much smarter than me but they still don't want to understand. Not only do they stick their fingers in their ears but they also are part of influential bodies that tend to persuade others to their cause. It has been far too long since the US has been a productive nation. We need to get back to the days of ingenuity. We have become a stagnant nation that just wants a hand out and feels that everything should be given and not earned. Until we remember this is not how it works everything from production to scientific research will suffer. Just my two cents.

Fear mongering, and destroying the prestige of intellectuality has some real serious repercussions. frown.gif

Yep, it's also more profitable to sell oil and coal. When it costs too much, its amazing how little environmentalist lawsuits will trouble companies attempting to deploy nuclear technology. This is of course assuming no fusion breakthrough, or another massive energy density breakthrough in a different technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by essanbee View Post

The reason the USA can't perform in the nuclear arena is because of the whack job environmentalists who file lawsuits as soon as company x decides to build a new facility.

Preach on.
Edited by Avonosac - 2/10/16 at 9:19am
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post #59 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkpriest667 View Post

Newsflash, the US was so wasteful during industrialization that you couldn't breathe the air in the cities or drink the water without getting sick. We were dumping toxic waste into rivers until the EPA happened. Yeah, Nixon did one good thing and that was it.


On topic as far as U.S. ramping up Nuclear energy. I think the best solution for uranium and plutonium waste would be to shoot it into the sun.

Until the container you are using breaks open and spreads it over a giant area. I was in a seminar yesterday about managing spent fuel pools. Apparently Palo Verde keeps all of the waste they have ever made onsite as none of the proposed places have panned out. Still waiting on Yucca Mountain to see if that ever goes anywhere.

Maybe Trump can arrange to have it sent to Mexico and countries to the south in exchange for immigrants ;p

There is zero drive to develop further nuclear power in this country. Palo Verde is considering scaling back output as it currently costs more per GW for nuclear power than for plants in Arizona running off of natural gas.

Palo Verde has the siting and the license for five reactors but zero plans to get them up and running. Not because of environmentalists or any of the other nonsense espoused above but because the cost of the water associated with running the plant. The licenses on those three reactors are up in 2045, 2046, and 2047. It will be interesting to see how the energy market changes over the next three decades but one thing that likely will not be cheaper is the water to run them.
Edited by Dagamus NM - 2/10/16 at 11:20am
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post #60 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus NM View Post

Until the container you are using breaks open and spreads it over a giant area. I was in a seminar yesterday about managing spent fuel pools. Apparently Palo Verde keeps all of the waste they have ever made onsite as none of the proposed places have panned out. Still waiting on Yucca Mountain to see if that ever goes anywhere.

Maybe Trump can arrange to have it sent to Mexico and countries to the south in exchange for immigrants ;p

There is zero drive to develop further nuclear power in this country. Palo Verde is considering scaling back output as it currently costs more per GW for nuclear power than for plants in Arizona running off of natural gas.

Palo Verde has the siting and the license for five reactors but zero plans to get them up and running. Not because of environmentalists or any of the other nonsense espoused above but because the cost of the water associated with running the plant. The licenses on those three reactors are up in 2045, 2046, and 2047. It will be interesting to see how the energy market changes over the next three decades but one thing that likely will not be cheaper is the water to run them.

I'll be honest I'm no expert in THAT field. What I do know is we have dropped a couple thousand nukes on the planet already and the fallout has been in the atmosphere for 50+ years. I am sure the risk is somewhat different, but it seems to me we've already gone down that road. I am just proposing an idea. Maybe spent nuclear fuel is just too dangerous. I don't know.
 
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