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Diminishing returns with RADIATOR EXPANSION? - CPU on H2O

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
When I try to answer this question for myself I start to 2nd guess my own answers.   ☞ I know that "In general" adding an additional RAD to an existing loop is going to improve cooling.. but I also suspect there are significant diminishing returns as you expand the loop (obviously you can't keep expanding and expect to get freezing temps). wink.gif

I currently have the CPU on a dedicated loop with a 240mm rad. The loop is expandable (It is a Swiftech H240-x). Under heavy load the temps are reaching around 85C. This is a HEAVILY overclocked CPU with a lot of voltage pumped through it (X5470).

I'm looking for other's opinion if you think an 85C CPU already under H2O with a dedicated 240mm rad would get lower temps under load if I expanded this loop by adding another RAD?

I'm just not sure if it is going to improve cooling in this specific example. Have I already maxxed out RAD space efficiency or do I have room to go? This is where I am 2nd guessing myself and I think it comes down to rad space efficiency and I am just not sure if I would be wasting my money by expanding this loop or would it be worthwhile (and see 5C or more improvement)?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts if you think expanding my loop for this CPU alone is worth it and what I might expect for temp reductions if I did based on your experience.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 11
Im just gonna throw out what came to mind. How warm does the rad feel? Feel the temp of the radiator at ambient or idle temp on the CPU, then stress the CPU until its completely heat soaked and the temp stabilizes. Then use your best judgement by comparing the difference of the coolest and the warmest temperatures. If the rad is warm you can expect gains from more rad space obviously. This is just what I would do, someone may say its dumb. 2cents.gif
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post #3 of 11
I would do this: Cold boot the system, start a benchmark, after 1 minute note the temperature. Then leave it running for 30-60 minutes and see how much the temperature rises during that time. If it increased by say, 15 degrees or more, then upgrading fans/radiators is going to make a big difference. If there is no little to no rise, then your current fans/radiators are perfectly capable of dissipating that heat and an upgrade won't give you much of an improvement.
post #4 of 11
Thread Starter 
Appreciate the feedback, thank you smile.gif Good ideas, will try timing it. I hadn't really timed how long it took for the temps to rise. When the CPU gets to 85C the air blowing out of the RAD does feel toasty and I notice it will heat up the room. Definitely warmer air than my GPU rads.
post #5 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namkab View Post

Im just gonna throw out what came to mind. How warm does the rad feel? Feel the temp of the radiator at ambient or idle temp on the CPU, then stress the CPU until its completely heat soaked and the temp stabilizes. Then use your best judgement by comparing the difference of the coolest and the warmest temperatures. If the rad is warm you can expect gains from more rad space obviously. This is just what I would do, someone may say its dumb. 2cents.gif

This. Rad temps that you can feel are an indicator. If it is just warm, rad is doing fine, but if it is hotter than you can stand touching for a while, you might want to invest in more rads, better fans or even a push/pull setup as it is not dissipating the heat fast enough.

In my case, i have tried my E5-2670 with my loop. While i am aware it cannot be OCed at all, it is still an 8-core s2011 behemoth, rated for 115w. Currently it has 2 DDC-1T pumps, 2 240mm Black Ice rads and 6 GT's (4 on bottom rad in P/P, 2 on top rad just in push). If i were to load the CPU fully on BOINC or IBT, and ran only the 2 fans in the top rad, i get temps of ~50-52c averaged on all cores. Turning on the fans below only brings that down at most ~3c. I even tried rigging a single rad setup (Quick disconnects are AWESOME) with only the top rad, temps increased by another ~3c. The rad feels not-really-hot, but it is definitely not lukewarm, and might benefit more in adding 2 more fans than adding another rad.

When OCing, the scenario changes, but in your case, i would try investing on more/better fans before of a new rad. However, even for a beastly OC, 360mm of rad should do the trick on a CPU-only loop.

Lastly, check your ambient temps. If your ambients are high, your delta temp will definitely be higher.
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post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starbomba View Post

This. Rad temps that you can feel are an indicator. If it is just warm, rad is doing fine, but if it is hotter than you can stand touching for a while, you might want to invest in more rads, better fans or even a push/pull setup as it is not dissipating the heat fast enough.

In my case, i have tried my E5-2670 with my loop. While i am aware it cannot be OCed at all, it is still an 8-core s2011 behemoth, rated for 115w. Currently it has 2 DDC-1T pumps, 2 240mm Black Ice rads and 6 GT's (4 on bottom rad in P/P, 2 on top rad just in push). If i were to load the CPU fully on BOINC or IBT, and ran only the 2 fans in the top rad, i get temps of ~50-52c averaged on all cores. Turning on the fans below only brings that down at most ~3c. I even tried rigging a single rad setup (Quick disconnects are AWESOME) with only the top rad, temps increased by another ~3c. The rad feels not-really-hot, but it is definitely not lukewarm, and might benefit more in adding 2 more fans than adding another rad.

When OCing, the scenario changes, but in your case, i would try investing on more/better fans before of a new rad. However, even for a beastly OC, 360mm of rad should do the trick on a CPU-only loop.

Lastly, check your ambient temps. If your ambients are high, your delta temp will definitely be higher.

thumb.gif

Makes perfect sense. Thanks!!
post #7 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laithan View Post

When I try to answer this question for myself I start to 2nd guess my own answers.   ☞ I know that "In general" adding an additional RAD to an existing loop is going to improve cooling.. but I also suspect there are significant diminishing returns as you expand the loop (obviously you can't keep expanding and expect to get freezing temps). wink.gif

I currently have the CPU on a dedicated loop with a 240mm rad. The loop is expandable (It is a Swiftech H240-x). Under heavy load the temps are reaching around 85C. This is a HEAVILY overclocked CPU with a lot of voltage pumped through it (X5470).

I'm looking for other's opinion if you think an 85C CPU already under H2O with a dedicated 240mm rad would get lower temps under load if I expanded this loop by adding another RAD?

I'm just not sure if it is going to improve cooling in this specific example. Have I already maxxed out RAD space efficiency or do I have room to go? This is where I am 2nd guessing myself and I think it comes down to rad space efficiency and I am just not sure if I would be wasting my money by expanding this loop or would it be worthwhile (and see 5C or more improvement)?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts if you think expanding my loop for this CPU alone is worth it and what I might expect for temp reductions if I did based on your experience.

Thanks!
post-flame-small.gif

Well all the above answers are good, but I figured I would come in with the easier one, yes.

My CPU is ost likely pushing more voltage than yours while benching as I push kill my chip voltage. Even then my CPU doesn't go over 65c, with the GPUs loaded at the same time.

To give you an example my CPU is 130ws stock where yours is 120w, I run my chip at 1.52v when benching when most people will tell you not to go over 1.4 even my 24/7 is 1.45 lol. Adding another 240 or very fast fans should give you much better temps. My staying under 65c is with 3 480s worth of rad space and 2 overclocked 290s.
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post #8 of 11
Thread Starter 
Ok I'm convinced that expanding my RAD space would definitely improve my temps considerably. Thanks everyone! +REP

biggrin.gif
Yup and we're thinking along the same lines.. Who cares when $60 buys you a replacement CPU lol. I may actually be running more voltage after all tongue.gif This is my "24/7" config! I've actually been running this over a year and it's solid so far.




You bring up another good point though...I chose to place my CPU on a dedicated loop because my thinking was that my OTHER loop is going to be working hard to keep my chipset and (2) GTX 980Ti's with a MOD BIOS cool and throwing the CPU into the mix would be expecting too much of it. Everything is running in "PULL" to minimize dust buildup in the RADs.
What my layout looks like, I was leak testing here (Click to show)

My other loop is a 140mm + 420mm for RAD space (Total of 560mm). All my RADS have Noctua NF-A14FLX fans. Currently that loop is not working hard at all and is likely overkill (the way it should be wink.gif).

So based on your example (with a lot of RAD space) should I actually consider combining the two loops into one?

If I got rid of my MCR-140x (140mm RAD) and joined my GPUs and Chipset to the H240x (240mm) it would give me a total of 660mm of RAD space. I suppose I could also just put another 140mm rad back where the MCR-140x was (once removed) and that would give me a total of 800mm...

Do folks think that's a better option (to combine my loops into one) than to try and add another RAD to my dedicated CPU loop?

oneeyedsmiley02.png
post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Namkab View Post

Im just gonna throw out what came to mind. How warm does the rad feel? Feel the temp of the radiator at ambient or idle temp on the CPU, then stress the CPU until its completely heat soaked and the temp stabilizes. Then use your best judgement by comparing the difference of the coolest and the warmest temperatures. If the rad is warm you can expect gains from more rad space obviously. This is just what I would do, someone may say its dumb. 2cents.gif

this is the best answer i have seen i will expand further on this in a bit


Quote:
Originally Posted by scrawl5 View Post

I would do this: Cold boot the system, start a benchmark, after 1 minute note the temperature. Then leave it running for 30-60 minutes and see how much the temperature rises during that time. If it increased by say, 15 degrees or more, then upgrading fans/radiators is going to make a big difference. If there is no little to no rise, then your current fans/radiators are perfectly capable of dissipating that heat and an upgrade won't give you much of an improvement.

this is something completely different
first is temp spiking ( running w.e. for 1 min ) this means literally nothing in a pc
you are talking about temperature saturation ( the water in the loop raising to its max temp )

every system will do this however unless you do certain things ( render/encode, fold/ect ) very unlikely this happens in day to day useage , most of the time you deal with mini temp spikes saturation temps will vary based on load - ie gaming will load the gpus more then the cpu but it could saturate the water more then a cpu only 100% intensive load

you can lengthen time it takes to reach saturation but all loops have a saturation point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laithan View Post

When I try to answer this question for myself I start to 2nd guess my own answers. ☞ I know that "In general" adding an additional RAD to an existing loop is going to improve cooling.. but I also suspect there are significant diminishing returns as you expand the loop (obviously you can't keep expanding and expect to get freezing temps). wink.gif

I currently have the CPU on a dedicated loop with a 240mm rad. The loop is expandable (It is a Swiftech H240-x). Under heavy load the temps are reaching around 85C. This is a HEAVILY overclocked CPU with a lot of voltage pumped through it (X5470).

I'm looking for other's opinion if you think an 85C CPU already under H2O with a dedicated 240mm rad would get lower temps under load if I expanded this loop by adding another RAD?

I'm just not sure if it is going to improve cooling in this specific example. Have I already maxxed out RAD space efficiency or do I have room to go? This is where I am 2nd guessing myself and I think it comes down to rad space efficiency and I am just not sure if I would be wasting my money by expanding this loop or would it be worthwhile (and see 5C or more improvement)?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts if you think expanding my loop for this CPU alone is worth it and what I might expect for temp reductions if I did based on your experience.

Thanks!
post-flame-small.gif

Well all the above answers are good, but I figured I would come in with the easier one, yes.

My CPU is ost likely pushing more voltage than yours while benching as I push kill my chip voltage. Even then my CPU doesn't go over 65c, with the GPUs loaded at the same time.

To give you an example my CPU is 130ws stock where yours is 120w, I run my chip at 1.52v when benching when most people will tell you not to go over 1.4 even my 24/7 is 1.45 lol. Adding another 240 or very fast fans should give you much better temps. My staying under 65c is with 3 480s worth of rad space and 2 overclocked 290s.

i have more voltage and my tdp is higher? and i have more equip in my loop ? ok, great answer in that case i run a 3930k @ 4.8 2400 ram and 2 295x2s with 5 480s and 4 mcp35xs and mine usually never break 60 however that i dont think helps him at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laithan View Post

Ok I'm convinced that expanding my RAD space would definitely improve my temps considerably. Thanks everyone! +REP

biggrin.gif
Yup and we're thinking along the same lines.. Who cares when $60 buys you a replacement CPU lol. I may actually be running more voltage after all tongue.gif This is my "24/7" config! I've actually been running this over a year and it's solid so far.




You bring up another good point though...I chose to place my CPU on a dedicated loop because my thinking was that my OTHER loop is going to be working hard to keep my chipset and (2) GTX 980Ti's with a MOD BIOS cool and throwing the CPU into the mix would be expecting too much of it. Everything is running in "PULL" to minimize dust buildup in the RADs.
What my layout looks like, I was leak testing here (Click to show)

My other loop is a 140mm + 420mm for RAD space (Total of 560mm). All my RADS have Noctua NF-A14FLX fans. Currently that loop is not working hard at all and is likely overkill (the way it should be wink.gif).

So based on your example (with a lot of RAD space) should I actually consider combining the two loops into one?

If I got rid of my MCR-140x (140mm RAD) and joined my GPUs and Chipset to the H240x (240mm) it would give me a total of 660mm of RAD space. I suppose I could also just put another 140mm rad back where the MCR-140x was (once removed) and that would give me a total of 800mm...

Do folks think that's a better option (to combine my loops into one) than to try and add another RAD to my dedicated CPU loop?

oneeyedsmiley02.png
for the most part dual loops are for looks, otherwise useless. so yes you should combine them there are reasons to run dual but tbh you dont need to, if you combine then it will be overkill for everything

the only real way to answer your question is a problem, you need a water to air temp delta to tell you what you need to know, do i think another rad may help yes- but there is far too much for me to assume, your block mount is a big one, another is how you are controlling your loop

the one thing that can negatively affect your build if you combine loops is you are now running through 3 blocks ( most chipset/mobo blocks are not restrictive enough to count ) cpu and 2 gpus that restrict flow, you should be fine though with both pumps ! but you may have to run them higher then you would like,

a LARGE improvement ( however it is costly ) is a aquaero you can program the aquaero to run from a water-air delta which will assist in getting the best temps for you !
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post #10 of 11
Thread Starter 
post-flame-small.gif
Awesome...

If I combine to make a single loop I shouldn't really even have to spend any 2cents.gif and should solve my problem at the same time. thumb.gif

Dumb question though, when you mentioned "You should be fine with both pumps" did you mean I can actually hook both pumps together in a series?

aquaero
drool.gif
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