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post #151 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post


Most flavor aren't DIACETYL laden

Voltage is irrelevant. Power to wick saturation is relevant.
I just came back from a vape store. Over 50% of their flavors contained one of those three chemical additives. Most vape flavors on the market right now will lead to popcorn lung. That is a simple fact, verified both by the market itself and bt anecdotal observation.

Power to wick saturation is a red herring. Dry wicking is extremely common, especially in altered rigs or people who want the "large cloud" effect. The studies not only show that voltage is a key issue, they point out the acetaldehyde reaction is over an order of magnitude worse directly due to voltage.
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post #152 of 371
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I just came back from a vape store. Over 50% of their flavors contained one of those three chemical additives. Most vape flavors on the market right now will lead to popcorn lung. That is a simple fact, verified both by the market itself and bt anecdotal observation.

Power to wick saturation is a red herring. Dry wicking is extremely common, especially in altered rigs or people who want the "large cloud" effect. The studies not only show that voltage is a key issue, they point out the acetaldehyde reaction is over an order of magnitude worse directly due to voltage.

Thank you for contributing to the topic, and doing a small sample size of research. I think you are right overall too.

Shame, I don't know if popcorn lung kills you, but it probably shortens your lifespan I have no doubts.
    
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post #153 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I just came back from a vape store. Over 50% of their flavors contained one of those three chemical additives. Most vape flavors on the market right now will lead to popcorn lung. That is a simple fact, verified both by the market itself and bt anecdotal observation.

Power to wick saturation is a red herring. Dry wicking is extremely common, especially in altered rigs or people who want the "large cloud" effect. The studies not only show that voltage is a key issue, they point out the acetaldehyde reaction is over an order of magnitude worse directly due to voltage.

thats not true..only diacetyl causes popcorn lung..same thing thats in popcorn butter. they call it popcorn lung because the first case of it came from a guy who ate movie theater popcorn with butter heavily. the butter contained diacetyl not the other chemicals.

and almost all vape juice nowadays do not contain diacetyl. so most juices will NOT cause popcorn lung.
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post #154 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I just came back from a vape store. Over 50% of their flavors contained one of those three chemical additives. Most vape flavors on the market right now will lead to popcorn lung. That is a simple fact, verified both by the market itself and bt anecdotal observation.

Power to wick saturation is a red herring. Dry wicking is extremely common, especially in altered rigs or people who want the "large cloud" effect. The studies not only show that voltage is a key issue, they point out the acetaldehyde reaction is over an order of magnitude worse directly due to voltage.

I'm not going to get into detail with you on how electricity works.

Voltage is irrelevant, HEAT is the issue. To hot, bad things happen.

Power to Wick Saturation is everything. Saturated wicks will keep the temperature lower, once a wick is dry you can and will get ridiculously high temperatures which is where you run into issues.

You would also be surprised at how little vape store employees know, not to say that is the case at your particular store. You just need to know what sources they use for flavorings and/or ask for an MSDS sheet. Most companies (Capella's, Flavor West, etc) have an alternate flavoring that is DA/AP free. many vendors also adjusted their juice to get the same/similar flavor without the DA/AP.

Also as mentioned before, there is more Diacetyl in regular cigarettes, and I don't recall hearing mass reports of popcorn lung.
     
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post #155 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by buttface420 View Post

thats not true..only diacetyl causes popcorn lung..same thing thats in popcorn butter. they call it popcorn lung because the first case of it came from a guy who ate movie theater popcorn with butter heavily. the butter contained diacetyl not the other chemicals.

and almost all vape juice nowadays do not contain diacetyl. so most juices will NOT cause popcorn lung.
Incorrect. Diacetyl flavors were not taken off the market. They are being sold until existing stock is depleted. Also, most flavors have simply substituted the diacetyl for either acetyl propionyl or acetoin, with both also cause popcorn lung.

Juices didn't get any safer. They just played the chemistry two step on the customer.
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post #156 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

I'm not going to get into detail with you on how electricity works.

Voltage is irrelevant, HEAT is the issue. To hot, bad things happen.
We're talking about filaments here. More voltage is more heat. How do you think heat is being added to the system? From your hand?
Quote:
Power to Wick Saturation is everything. Saturated wicks will keep the temperature lower, once a wick is dry you can and will get ridiculously high temperatures which is where you run into issues.
Testing was done with fully saturated wicks. There was no dry wicking involved when the study found a 200 times increase in acetaldehyde levels between 3.2 and 4.8V tests.

You also brush aside the fact that dry wicking is incredibly common amongst vape users, making this caveat irrelevant.
Quote:
You just need to know what sources they use for flavorings and/or ask for an MSDS sheet. Most companies (Capella's, Flavor West, etc) have an alternate flavoring that is DA/AP free. many vendors also adjusted their juice to get the same/similar flavor without the DA/AP.
Source? I'm reading the ingredients on the label in the store. I'm not taking a cashier's word for anything.
Quote:
Also as mentioned before, there is more Diacetyl in regular cigarettes, and I don't recall hearing mass reports of popcorn lung.
I'm not sure one could separate the damage that tobacco causes from popcorn lung. Popcorn lung is similar to fiberglass inhalation, and tars would likely coat the damage.
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post #157 of 371

i have like 16 bottles of juice right here, none of them contain any of those three chemicals. so just buy juices that dont containg them..problem solved
Edited by buttface420 - 2/15/16 at 3:19pm
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post #158 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

We're talking about filaments here. More voltage is more heat. How do you think heat is being added to the system? From your hand?
Testing was done with fully saturated wicks. There was no dry wicking involved when the study found a 200 times increase in acetaldehyde levels between 3.2 and 4.8V tests.

You also brush aside the fact that dry wicking is incredibly common amongst vape users, making this caveat irrelevant.
Source? I'm reading the ingredients on the label in the store. I'm not taking a cashier's word for anything.
I'm not sure one could separate the damage that tobacco causes from popcorn lung. Popcorn lung is similar to fiberglass inhalation, and tars would likely coat the damage.
If im thinking about the same study that I read about that 200 times claim is BS. They used a extremely old and outdated atomizer, one you would never run more than 4v in.
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post #159 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

We're talking about filaments here. More voltage is more heat. How do you think heat is being added to the system? From your hand?
Heat produced is purely about wattage and mass of the wire

You need to play the voltage vs resistance game.

voltage by itself isn't relevant.

Overall temperature is what really matters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

Testing was done with fully saturated wicks. There was no dry wicking involved when the study found a 200 times increase in acetaldehyde levels between 3.2 and 4.8V tests.

Again what wattage? Temperature?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

You also brush aside the fact that dry wicking is incredibly common amongst vape users, making this caveat irrelevant.

Perhaps yes, but the user has a reasonable amount of control of their wick saturation. It just takes some learning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

Source? I'm reading the ingredients on the label in the store. I'm not taking a cashier's word for anything.

Source for what? That flavoring vendors have alternative flavorings to replace the Diacetyl in some of their flavor liquids? Goto the flavoring manufacturers' websites (not the ejuice manufacturer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I'm not sure one could separate the damage that tobacco causes from popcorn lung. Popcorn lung is similar to fiberglass inhalation, and tars would likely coat the damage.

Popcorn lung is an obstruction of the bronchial tubes from scar tissue, Tar would not "coat the damage" if anything it would further obstruct.
     
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post #160 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by buttface420 View Post

i have like 16 bottles of juice right here, none of them contain any of those three chemicals. so just buy juices that dont containg them..problem solved
Is it also TSNA and diethylene glycol free? So far I've just brought up the well known and well disputed chemicals. Doesn't Ockham's Razor kind of demand that there are more toxins left undiscovered, due to a lack of research? How many toxic chemicals will have to be found before the "My juice is harmless" crowd starts to get worried?
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