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[Ars] E-cigs shut down hundreds of immune system genes—regular cigs don’t - Page 21  

post #201 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

It's physics, what evidence could you want?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law
Still being obtuse. The argument isn't about Ohm's Law. Get over it. We already discussed how for purposes of the experiments in question, resistance is irrelevant. All juices were tested using the same coil. Resistance literally has nothing to do with it. If you wish to keep saying it does, please take it elsewhere.
Quote:
So they tried to Re-Patent NiCrhome? what are you even talking about.
No, they patented a specific blend of NiChrome. You see, alloys aren't universal. Differing percentages of specific materials can yield wildly varying properties. They patented their specific blend of NiChrome. This happens all the time. I knew a swordsmith who patented their own blend of stainless steel.
Quote:
It has everything to do with it.
You do not get to dictate both your position and the opposition's position in the same argument. You do not get to gaslight me and tell me what the focus of my argument is. If that is really your tack, this conversation should end now.
Quote:
To which I started this argument with Voltage is irrelevant.

Acetaldehyde wont form at 5 volts when putting it through 10K ohms of resistance. It wont get hot enough. Hense voltage by itself isn't relevant.

What matters is HEAT and POWER in the form of WATTs.

Which is why we're on the topic of metallurgy
No. Just no. You don't get to point at some absurd situation where resistance is at over the top levels (10k resistance in a vape) and claim that such a forced theoretical has anything to do with realistic observation. It is clear you are simply looking to poke holes at the professional data rather than caring about what that data is.
Quote:
NiChrome does not work in temp control "yet" as its TCR (temperature coefficient of resistance) is way to low. You are thinking of Nickel (Ni-200, nearly pure nickel)
No, NiChrome. I'm not hiding behind a "temp-controlled" caveat here. I'm telling you what the people Hon Lik ripped off did, and said they did in interviews.
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post #202 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

Still being obtuse. The argument isn't about Ohm's Law. Get over it. We already discussed how for purposes of the experiments in question, resistance is irrelevant. All juices were tested using the same coil. Resistance literally has nothing to do with it. If you wish to keep saying it does, please take it elsewhere.


It does matter because your statement that "The approximate voltage that acetaldehyde begins to form from high-PG juice is around 5.0 volts" which is false. That will lead anyone who reads that, and is uneducated on the subject, to believe that as fact. In their specific test using that specific coil and juice combination at 5 volts produced acetaldehyde.


High-PG Juice at 5 Volts will produce acetaldehyde - is false
High-PG Juice at 5 Volts CAN produce acetaldehyde, under specific circumstances where the resistance of the coil permits this juice to reach X temperature - is true

Your original statement pointed to the former not the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

You don't get to point at some absurd situation where resistance is at over the top levels (10k resistance in a vape) and claim that such a forced theoretical has anything to do with realistic observation. It is clear you are simply looking to poke holes at the professional data rather than caring about what that data is.
It's absurd for the sake of proving a point, under realistic values the logic still applies. However since you are strictly talking about that specific test I'll just let you have it. rolleyes.gif

Which I might add they don't mention at what temperature acetaldehyde was formed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

No, NiChrome. I'm not hiding behind a "temp-controlled" caveat here. I'm telling you what the people Hon Lik ripped off did, and said they did in interviews.

The quote about temp control and NiChrome has nothing to do with you. that was directed @WolfssFang

* argumenative / redacted *
Edited by PappaSmurfsHarem - 2/15/16 at 9:49pm
     
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post #203 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by PappaSmurfsHarem View Post

It does matter because your statement that "The approximate voltage that acetaldehyde begins to form from high-PG juice is around 5.0 volts" which is false.
It was a bit of a generalization, I admit. Honestly though, it was being exceedingly generous. The data is much worse that that. Acetaldehyde is detectable at ~3.2V. It is simply at ~4.8V that the process gets out of control, with up to 200 times the acetaldehyde load.
Quote:
That will lead anyone who reads that, and is uneducated on the subject, to believe that as fact. In their specific test using that specific coil and juice combination at 5 volts produced acetaldehyde.
Actually, it leads most to believe that lower voltages produce much less heat and acetaldehyde.
Quote:
High-PG Juice at 5 Volts will produce acetaldehyde - is false
It is absolutely true.

"Formaldehyde and acetaldehyde were found in 8 of 13 samples. The amounts of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde in vapors from lower voltage EC were on average 13- and 807-fold lower than in tobacco smoke, respectively. The highest levels of carbonyls were observed in vapors generated from PG-based solutions. Increasing voltage from 3.2 to 4.8V resulted in 4 to over 200 times increase in formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, and acetone levels. The levels of formaldehyde in vapors from high-voltage device were in the range of levels reported in tobacco smoke.

Conclusions: Vapors from EC contain toxic and carcinogenic carbonyl compounds. Both solvent and battery output voltage significantly affect levels of carbonyl compounds in EC vapors. High-voltage EC may expose users to high levels of carbonyl compounds."

http://ntr.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/05/14/ntr.ntu078.full

8 out of 13 samples at 3.2V showed acetaldehyde and formaldehyde. A separate, unpublished study discusses the issues with the smaller particles, which makes vape acetaldehyde so much worse than tobacco.

"Particles found in inhaled cigarette smoke have a median size of 0.3-0.5 microns. Testing has found that the e-cigarette particles have a median of 0.18-0.27 microns. About 40% of these particles can travel deep into the lungs and become embedded in the alveoli, where gas exchange occurs."
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post #204 of 371
Thread Starter 
Never had a news topic get this many posts without getting uncivil, really appreciate that everyone, it is only naturally for there be a little anger when debating. biggrin.gif
    
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post #205 of 371
This has already been locked, cleaned, cleaned again and warning have been handed out.
    
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post #206 of 371
I'll just leave my 100% anecdotal reference, but vaping has changed my life for the better. I obviously recommend never picking up the habit, but if you do, this is probably the safest way out. Not the patches or the gum.
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post #207 of 371
Honestly not sure about @Chakravant guys stance. All "unknowns" and hunches in his previous posts are available online for anyone to see. Absolutely all, including resistance of pre-made coils. They are actually sold by the resistance... just nitpicking way too long posts smile.gif
Last link also has:
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS

Vapors from ECs contain toxic and carcinogenic carbonyl compounds. Both solvent and battery output voltage significantly affect levels of carbonyl compounds in EC vapors. Levels of carbonyls rapidly increase with increased battery output voltage. New generation of high-voltage ECs may put their users in increased health risk from exposure to high levels of carbonyl compounds although the risk will still probably be much lower compared with smoking.
Cigarette contains over 10 000 chemicals, harmful chemicals... and it's still "Probably".
And:
Quote:
MLG received research funding from Pfizer, manufacturer of stop smoking medication.

k
I bet pfizer doesn't want to sell those nic patches that have success rate under 4% while raking millions.



Exaggeration and over hyping is todays media. I fail to see lung cancer and dead bodies from vaping while it being sooooooo much worse than cigarettes...
Some studies literally trying to prove that cigarettes are safer...
It's not new that pharma companies try to prove e-cigs are bet, nobody likes losing money. Especially when they are losing money to something with exceptionally high success rate.
Have a read here: http://www.tasteyourjuice.com/wordpress/is-it-safe or don't, w/e.
The first pharma fiasco tests were conducted on dry coils... First of all if coil build is dry you'll get serious burning inside. No taste, only burnt material. Believe me nobody wants that and nobody does that.
I don't deny that e-cigs contain harmful chemicals. Not worse than cigarettes, not even close to the levels of that. And actually real solution to quit smoking.
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post #208 of 371
Since no one actually listens to me(on this board at least hehe), I'm just going to leave this down here and see if anyone cares to read.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_006e/0901b8038006e13c.pdf?filepath=propyleneglycol/pdfs/noreg/117-01785.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

As much as you might hate DOW chemical for w/e reason they know their glycols.
Its all you ever wanted to know about the chemical and all it can and can't do. Special notices go out to the fact that there seemingly no mentioning of any electrolytic reaction (bar one that requires a specific catalyst.) so talking about Volts vs Heat in PGs example at least should be solved now.

Please take a read, its a pretty good article.

Oh and

@ Chakravant
Why does no one called out that "micro-gram per 20 puffs" is not a valid unit of measurement? Its ppm, has been for every environmental case ever. Why can't I see any ppm values in that entire article? OSHA lists safety standards in ppm, how would you evaluate otherwise? The closest I could think of in terms of conversion is taking those numbers as mcirogram / L. Here is the converter.

http://www.endmemo.com/sconvert/ug_lppm.php

Comes out to be in ranges of parts for billion. OSHA doesn't register those for all day exposures to my knowledge.
EDIT:
Only editing this part and adding this acetone OSHA standard link
https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_216600.html
And this Formaldehyde OSHA link
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=10075&p_table=STANDARDS

Those are some stiff standards considering OSHA has money at stake (fine collection, lawsuits etc.) and we pass them with flying colors for 8 hour exposure limits. Let alone STEL limits.

I would love to see the real ppm values for flavors thought.
Edited by _Red_Dog_ - 2/16/16 at 7:59am
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post #209 of 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

I average 3-4 puffs per sitting, and about 4-5 sittings a day at 4.8V. That puts me at most around 20 puffs a day. In a week, that's 140 puffs. I know I can get more than 140 puffs out of a 1 gram preloaded cartridge.

Going through 10 ml a day? That's a pretty extreme edge case, don't you think?

Now just wait 1 second....., An EGO will not last 14 days no where near that no where!

1 gram preloaded cartridge. I do not know what you are smoking but it isn't nicotine. I seen you say right before this you get it by the MG not the ML, okay ya well no. I not only make juice buy buying pure nicotine (I been using a 25% mix as of late as its safer) and diluting it myself, but also have a vape store.

Nicotine is measured in Milligrams per Milliliter, this also isnt new to vaping that is how it is measured in a liquid form always. Pure, will kill you if you even spill it on your skin, nicotine is 1000mg per ml. You dilute that mixture with PG or VG and get the ration you want. For instance I vape 3-5mgs per ml. So that means the Nicotine content of is .3%-.5% respectively, that is how nicotine is measured.

You could if you wanted to know total, use this equation to gather a total MG of nicotine in the bottle. However it simply is not measured like that. So in my case we will do the equation, 3mg X 30 ML = 90mg of Nic, that is how much I vape in a day is 30 MLs.

Okay so a pack of cigarettes at 9mg per cigarette is about 180mg, now the absorption levels are different, you absorb about 2x as much nic from vaping as a cigarette. That means my 30mls a day is about the same as a pack of cigarettes as far as Nicotine content.

You also stated that you vape your 1 gram for the day, you either wrote this wrong or are wrong. If you vaped 1 gram of nicotine a day we wouldn't be talking, 1 gram of nicotine is enough to kill even a smoker.....

Okay I was basing of the other post on this one you clarified. so by your calculation, your carto has 1 gram total nicotine in it. That would mean each puff you take is 7mgs of nicotine that is more than a entire cigarette in 1 puff. I highly doubt you have a carto that has that kind of nic content as the highest sold is 36mg and even that is rare, a Cartomizer holds between 1.5-3mgs of nicotine so what you are saying is they have filled that with a 35%-65% nicotine VS the highest sold ejuice which is 3.6% ya my friend you are wrong.

To your Formaldehyde argument voltage is only 1 side of the equation resistance is the other. Also the test you mention did show those chemicals being made. With a specific test, with specific variables. They used Silica wicks, a Chinese junkey tank at a higher voltage that it is meant to be used at. They also dry burned the wick which is when the result was found. Any vaper knows why a dry hit is or dry burning which they did, no one can vape that it burns tastes horrid and is just extremely unpleasant. That is why CASAA quickly refuted and fought that test and its bad info, the test parameters need to be kept in a margin of proof, they are taking things out of context by using them in ways that vapers will not thus there entire test is invalid.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/16/16 at 8:15am
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Originally Posted by TheReciever View Post

This has already been locked, cleaned, cleaned again and warning have been handed out.


lol I didn't know that, I go afk a lot sometimes biggrin.gif
    
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i7-7820HK Kaby Lake @ 4.2Ghz GTX 1070 @ 2Ghz boost @ 9008Mhz Vram 16GB 2x8 DDR4 2133 Samsung 960 EVO 500GB NVMe 
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CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7-7820HK Kaby Lake @ 4.2Ghz GTX 1070 @ 2Ghz boost @ 9008Mhz Vram 16GB 2x8 DDR4 2133 Samsung 960 EVO 500GB NVMe 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
5TB Seagate 2.5" 5400RPM Grizzly Conductonaut on GPU and CPU Win 10 Bloatware Free Edition 17.3" 1080p IPS oc'd 100hz GSYNC 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Ars] E-cigs shut down hundreds of immune system genes—regular cigs don’t