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[TweakTown] AMD has their own recommended CPUs for VR, because Oculus hates AMD - Page 29

post #281 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

Bottlenecking is so situationally dependent. There are situations where my 4.9ghz 4790k "bottlenecks" a 7970 and there are situations where my 780 ti bottlenecks my FX at 1080 on medium graphics settings . In the majority of games the limiting factor in my situation is my monitor's refresh rate, human ability to recognize frame rates above 60 or a games ability to make use of the hardware available .

So far , the oculus cpu spec has excluded over 85 % of gamers based on how I interpret the January steam hardware survey.

That is true to a point, however I mean with like an 8320 you will be hard pressed to find a game at all that will not bottleneck 2 290xs. To the point where the game might not even run at 60fps on high settings.

As for your situation you also have a very very high clocked 9370, so that is kind of a different beast than a 8320 at 4-4.8ghz. I am sure your FX would be fine for Rift.
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post #282 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

It's a neat concept, but at my age I may not live to see it in the show up in double digit % on the steam hardware survey tongue.gif.
What percentage of people on the steam survey have graphics cards that meet the min spec? Has to be less than 15 % doesn't it?

Well the minimum card is a 970 which is the highest used card on stream survey. Anyway if you gathered up cards that meet the minimum (or exceed it) your looking at about 8.5%. Not counting the people that have SLI or Crossfire of lower end cards, but would still reach minimum. so 10-15% sounds about right.

However seeing how the second most used card on steam survey is intel graphics 4000, with integrated graphics making up about 15% of the survey (just intel, not sure how to get the AMD integrated numbers) I think its a safe bet that steam survey carries little weight to "Real Gamers" and is mixed in with a lot of minecraft players ect.

It also shows the most used processor speed as 2.3 - 2.7, at 20% and people over 3.7ghz is a staggering 2.48%, ya so they don't even make CPUs under 3 ghz these days and haven't in years have they?

Which tells me they are using very very old CPUs or laptops are the number 1 thing used on steam, well gaming and laptop do not belong in the same sentence.

That is followed by 15% for what I assume i3/i5/i7s (over 3.3 under 3.7, if they are not using the boost clock numbers)

The AMDs that could possibly cope (over 3.7ghz) is at 4.37%

I truly hate it when people link or reference steam surveys for this reason, as it is not a good representation of the gaming community (or our level of it anyway). If you define the gaming community as people that play league and minecraft I guess it is and those are probably the most 2 downloaded games from steam. Those games can be ran on a p4 on integrated graphics, and do not represent the "gaming community" that we partake in.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/17/16 at 10:49pm
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post #283 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

Not really, since they don´t claim to be actually measuring / benchmarking anything. It is a fact that Intels newest µarch (Skylake) is 50-90% faster than AMDs newest µarch (Excavator). If Oculus has determined that single threaded performance is critical for VR, then excluding AMD CPUs from the recommended list is absolutely the right thing to do.

There are no Intel CPUs from < 2008 listed either.

Aaaaaand I think that is /thread.
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post #284 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLeakStuff View Post

AMD sell software and hardware to customers. If they think being passive instead of pro active and working with customers will get them anywhere, they deserve to go bankrupt.

All the recent complaining from AMD is a pretty good sign that they dont have the resources like the competitiors to work with customers or that AMD just doesnt know how to maximize their strategy.

for many years now (excluding cheap notebooks). You can find a video of one of the biggest system builders out there in a discussion with AMD where they talked about how crappy AMDs support have been and thats whAMD have been almost non existent in notebooks y they moved to Nvidia.

You really sure about that? I mean like really really sure?



That was bought last year.

There were 2xx mobile ones as well but this fit my price target a bit more at that time. In total there were 4 AMD powered graphics, a ton of Intel HD ones and 1 (ONE!) nVidia one. So don't talk like it's the same everywhere around.
Edited by MadRabbit - 2/18/16 at 1:16am
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post #285 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post


Well the minimum card is a 970 which is the highest used card on stream survey. Anyway if you gathered up cards that meet the minimum (or exceed it) your looking at about 8.5%. Not counting the people that have SLI or Crossfire of lower end cards, but would still reach minimum. so 10-15% sounds about right.

However seeing how the second most used card on steam survey is intel graphics 4000, with integrated graphics making up about 15% of the survey (just intel, not sure how to get the AMD integrated numbers) I think its a safe bet that steam survey carries little weight to "Real Gamers" and is mixed in with a lot of minecraft players ect.

It also shows the most used processor speed as 2.3 - 2.7, at 20% and people over 3.7ghz is a staggering 2.48%, ya so they don't even make CPUs under 3 ghz these days and haven't in years have they?

Which tells me they are using very very old CPUs or laptops are the number 1 thing used on steam, well gaming and laptop do not belong in the same sentence.

That is followed by 15% for what I assume i3/i5/i7s (over 3.3 under 3.7, if they are not using the boost clock numbers)

The AMDs that could possibly cope (over 3.7ghz) is at 4.37%

I truly hate it when people link or reference steam surveys for this reason, as it is not a good representation of the gaming community (or our level of it anyway). If you define the gaming community as people that play league and minecraft I guess it is and those are probably the most 2 downloaded games from steam. Those games can be ran on a p4 on integrated graphics, and do not represent the "gaming community" that we partake in.

 

It's not that I disagree with what you're saying. I do agree with the bolded statements. However from a marketing standpoint it's rather illustrative that Intel HD graphics/laptops/sub3GHz processors are so prevalent. Gaming may be a large market but dedicated tower PC gaming is just a slice of that pie, and high-end, custom-built PC gaming is a smaller slice still. So regarding what @cssorkinman is wondering about in terms of adoption I think is quite important as a question. It kind of ties into @p4inkill3r's issues with some of the purpose-marketed pre-builts. Those systems, which the population at large are more likely to purchase than most of us enthusiast types, are designed around the minimum requirements. Who knows how relevant they'll even be with AAA, VR-compatible games in the near future? 

 

Enthusiasts like us may be enough to make something like Oculus profitable, but we're not enough to register VR as 'popular' any time soon IMO.

     
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post #286 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

well gaming and laptop do not belong in the same sentence.

Truly? I'm typing this from the same laptop that I play MWO on. Granted, everything is on low and I dearly wish I had a much larger screen, hence why I'm building a Zen/Polaris comp, but sacrifices must be made.
post #287 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

It's not that I disagree with what you're saying. I do agree with the bolded statements. However from a marketing standpoint it's rather illustrative that Intel HD graphics/laptops/sub3GHz processors are so prevalent. Gaming may be a large market but dedicated tower PC gaming is just a slice of that pie, and high-end, custom-built PC gaming is a smaller slice still. So regarding what @cssorkinman
 is wondering about in terms of adoption I think is quite important as a question. It kind of ties into @p4inkill3r
's issues with some of the purpose-marketed pre-builts. Those systems, which the population at large are more likely to purchase than most of us enthusiast types, are designed around the minimum requirements. Who knows how relevant they'll even be with AAA, VR-compatible games in the near future? 

Enthusiasts like us may be enough to make something like Oculus profitable, but we're not enough to register VR as 'popular' any time soon IMO.

I agree completely we are a very small segment, however the bleeding edge often has those issues. This is why consoles are still so popular, you cant play The Wicther 3 on integrated graphics, even a cheap end GPU like a 960 will struggle to play that game, and you may find playing it on console would be a better alternative.

We see the same thing with 4k, according to the steam survey the majority of users systems could not play 4k video must less 4k games of any sort. In a few years that will change but as of today, its bleeding edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyrwulf View Post

Truly? I'm typing this from the same laptop that I play MWO on. Granted, everything is on low and I dearly wish I had a much larger screen, hence why I'm building a Zen/Polaris comp, but sacrifices must be made.

I should have changed my phraseology to be more politically correct, as League and Minecraft are games and the people that play them are very serious about them. They are in fact Gamers, just with a different genre of game. So apologies to anyone that I may have offended with that comment, I will try to devise a way to say what I mean more politically correct, in the future.

Now that is settled, you fall into this genre of gamer, MWO has extremely low system requirements and has a very close genre to that of an MMO. MMOs, Dotas, Indies, ect, these games are made to have support for the most amount of people possible. As they rely on tons of people playing them to make money from them, these games also do not usually make there way to consoles which further impacts there need for a large PC use base.

However that is a completely different world, my laptop is not very good, however I can play League, Smite, WOW and Archeage on it, The Witcher 3, DAI, AC5 not a chance in hell.

There is a major difference between the Genre of very low requirement games with large online user bases, and single player AAA titles. For the record I play those kinds of games as well, I play all the games above, I am just saying there is a difference (and again Real Gamers, was really the wrong wording).

Okay so back on track, it is a long way off before WOW or League gets VR, AAA titles are a more fitting place for VR to aim atm. So its like comparing apples to oranges, as the people that play that genre will have little to no need for VR, the ones that need VR or will want it, will fall more into the Single Player experience.

I also before someone says it, relize there is "Gaming Laptops", however they are a niche, they are very expensive and have a small niche of people that should be using them. I had a freind that was frequently in different states (LIke every couple of weeks) for his work. He would go from motel to motel lugging a big ole desktop and monitor ect, just to game, he had a very good reason to have one of those gaming laptops. They are decent for gaming, however they are much more expensive then a desktop, and will never be as powerful so outside of an absolute travel need, they serve little point, anyways due to them being so expensive I doubt much of the steam survey consists of them.

I understand what you are saying, however my point is you don't know fall into the genre of VR, your laptop will not play Crysis 3 at all. It is a different market consisting of different needs, and in the market will VR is aimed, a laptop or integrated graphics dell prebuilt are not going to work VR or not.

That was kinda what I meant by the steam survey not proving accurate, the majority of those users that have those lower end systems are not playing AAA Single Player Titles, and if they are, they are most likely playing those on PS4, XB1. As a major chunk of that surveys user base could not even run a AAA game at any settings.
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post #288 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Okay so back on track, it is a long way off before WOW or League gets VR, AAA titles are a more fitting place for VR to aim atm.

Triple A requires a MASSIVE market to be profitable, though. I'd rather expect games with lower development costs to pioneer the genre.

Well, hoping anyway, since most triple A games are laser focused on selling to the smallest common denominator, unlike games with small development cost footprint. Can take more risks with exploring something new, there.

Indie games also survive on very limited audiences at times. Less people to pay, less need for a big market.

I find it really strange to expect triple A game production to pioneer the genre, really. LoL doesn't need the audience it has to be a commerical success, it just ended up with it due to being a good game. (with even better marketing/public relations)

I do see the point about system specs, though. You'd want to make games run on very modest hardware, if you're not sure your game will be a success with a large enough audience, if system requirements further complicate access to the game.

From that perspective, Oculus providing recommended specs should be a boon for devs, to figure out what the hardware of their already limited, potential market, should look like; less to worry about. You don't need to be a triple A studio to saturate an i5's single thread performance at 90fps with a simple-to-program-for API. Or an R9 290, using some fancy shaders.

It creates a solid foundation for non-triple A devs to build their artistic vision in VR. Triple A devs can just optimize the game well enough to run on anything with low settings, anyhow. (That's why triple A games can look so visually bleeding edge. Since they can sell to any joe to run the game on 30fps medium settings/consoles, having a marketing channel in place to get the sales.)

Smaller devs can't optimize for everything, but they can optimize for the smallest common denominator of hardware people run (meaning the rift recommended specs might actually end up leading to a lot of decent looking, non-triple A titles for VR.). Anything visually fancy past that is just an extra cost.

edit: not trying to disagree in any substantial fashion by the way, just wanted to share my 2 cents on the situation and VR! thumb.gif
Edited by Tivan - 2/18/16 at 10:03am
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post #289 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post



Okay so back on track, it is a long way off before WOW or League gets VR, AAA titles are a more fitting place for VR to aim atm. So its like comparing apples to oranges, as the people that play that genre will have little to no need for VR, the ones that need VR or will want it, will fall more into the Single Player experience.

I find this rather odd. To me that segment would be semi-ideal for VR. The systems wouldn't require such high end specs and the playerbases are likely to spend money on hardware for their particular game. So instead of spending 60 here and there on every new game they spend it all on one game. Also the RP communites are fit like a glove for VR.
post #290 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivan View Post

Triple A requires a MASSIVE market to be profitable, though. I'd rather expect games with lower development costs to pioneer the genre.

Well, hoping anyway, since most triple A games are laser focused on selling to the smallest common denominator, unlike games with small development cost footprint. Can take more risks with exploring something new, there.

Indie games also survive on very limited audiences at times. Less people to pay, less need for a big market.

I find it really strange to expect triple A game production to pioneer the genre, really. LoL doesn't need the audience it has to be a commerical success, it just ended up with it due to being a good game.

I do see the point about system specs, though. You'd want to make games run on very modest hardware, if you're not sure your game will be a success with a large enough audience, if system requirements further complicate access to the game.

"unlike games with small development cost footprint. Can take more risks with exploring something new, there."

This is the issue though, Developing a VR game and Cheap should never be used in the same sentence. To make a game VR it needs to give a feeling of "real" Virtual REALITY, on top of that an MMO would be very difficult to play on VR.

With the case of MMOs (which I play) I am the class that pays mass amounts of money into those games, those people are competitive, they want any advantage they can get and they will pay for it, the RPers spend way less money than the hardcore PVP/PVE players. The latter VR would hinder not help, as having a larger view distance such as in 3rd person gives you a competitive advantage. In my experience most RPers are in the F2P games (thats pretty much all mmos these days) more so leaches, they may buy a costume every know and then and maybe spend a total of 100-300 over a few years in the game. Where as PvPers in the game will spend thousands upon thousands if it will make them that much more competitive.

Know I am not necessarily saying the games will be AAA Quality, they most likely wont. I saying they will be AAA developers that make the games that actually sell.

So basically lets put it like this,

MMOs, Online Competitive games, No market they would be a hindrance to the people that pay the bills

Indie Titles, may have some, they will be of very poor quality and quickly tarnish the wants for VR to begin with.

Triple AAA Developers, They have the resources and money to make VR succeed, there games will be single player based and play into the VRs immersion experience perfectly.

MMO RPs (Sim City, Second Life, ECT) These games will see a huge base of VR players, however the CPU power needed to run these kinds of games with many people in the world will be massive, I am not even sure we currently have CPUs up to the task atm.

Now only time will tell, and I could be totally wrong, we will just have to wait and see. However judging by the way the market works I doubt I am.

We also have to stop ignoring 1 fact. Through this entire thread, I see people talking about cost and average users not affording the system to play it. This may be true however there is a golden gate here, The VR headset is 600 dollars starting, if you can afford 600 dollars for the headset then you can aford a better setup to run it. This isn't some 100 dollar bit you add to your laptop and play VR, the games will likely also be vastly expensive. You keep looking at it like the PC to run it is expensive and do not seem to realize everything about VR will be insanely expensive.

They do offer a combo as well however, for 1500 you get a PC capable as well as the headset ect. This also isnt a far shot from Sonys VR that will require a 400 dollar headset and the new PS4 elite, which will likely be around 600-700. If you want to play VR it is going to be very very expensive period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maltamonk View Post

I find this rather odd. To me that segment would be semi-ideal for VR. The systems wouldn't require such high end specs and the playerbases are likely to spend money on hardware for their particular game. So instead of spending 60 here and there on every new game they spend it all on one game. Also the RP communites are fit like a glove for VR.

I went over this above, but will again. I agree RP communities are fit like a glove for VR, however the CPU power for that is immense, and RPers do not spend money competitive players do and they wont want VR as it would it be a disadvantage. Most competitor players myself included would prefer to see more not less as VR would achieve. This is why FOV mods and the likes are extremely attractive to that player base.

RPers do not pay the bills in F2P games, and this is also why P2S is no where near as a lucrative business model as P2W. There is a few exceptions to this rule, games like second life which are designed for only RP, in those games RPers do pay the bills as thats all there is RP. However they are also a far shot away from anywhere near the player base of Competitive MMOs.

Even then a large part of MMO communities that have P2S the skins are bought from competitive players so they can look good while killing people, in the end though they will not buy into VR disadvantage. However if you look at the statics from sales, Combat items will always out sale cosmetic ones Competition rules that industry not RP, RPers are very outnumbered.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/18/16 at 10:14am
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