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[MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Page 19

post #181 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Really man?

I mean seriously?

It actually doesn't undermine your freedom of speech - You still maintain your first amendment rights and they are defended...This isn't even a 1st amendment debate. It's never been a 1st Amendment debate.

This is a debate more/less about the 4th in it's entirety. The right of lawfully seizing of evidence/information. Does the FBI maintain probable cause in the "unlocking" of all Iphones via a backdoor.

Right now, in your local PD, on AVERAGE there are 3-4 Iphones PER UNIT that sit in evidence lockers that belong to latent criminals. Some murdered, some raped, some were actually terrorists, some belong to individuals that were murdered...They sit there, unused - With evidence, real EVIDENCE that cannot be used in the court of law, because law enforcement can't gain access and Apple refuses to help even on a 1x1 basis.

The irony - That's not even an emotional plea - That's a fact of this case.

"Oh we'll give you their cloud data." - Smart criminals turn off the cloud and keep the data on the device. In fact, that's not even a new thing.

Your 1st Amendment rights? Seriously? You have the right to spew nonsense on these forums...Nobody is hindering that.

Apple won't even agree to a 1x1 unlocking of the phones...Meanwhile there's a legitimate terrorist CELL still somewhere, we have no idea. Thousands of cases go unsolved, yearly...

Are they going about it the wrong way? Absolutely, the FBI is challenging your right to lawful seizure but, nothing more.

Ignorance is in thinking this case is about your freedom of speech when that's never once been challenged by anyone.

Yes, it absolutely impacts freedom of speech.

The entire idea behind freedom of speech is to ensure that people can communicate without the inherent threat that comes along with being listened to by the government. Speech is protected by privacy. Undermine the 4th and you undermine the 1st.

Data creation happens, today, almost as a bi-product of modern technology. It's a functional necessity for our sharing and ingestion of media and speech. Sometimes it's not a functional necessity; sometimes we don't even know it's going on, like GPS and telemetry data that can be used to identify our religion, sleeping habits, and what political protests we attend.

People generally don't want this data to be collected. They tolerate it because you need this technology to live a healthy, normal life in this modern age. It's a bi-product that we tolerate for convenient and efficient access to information and communication.

How then, does the government effect free speech by having back door access to our entire record? It doesn't, as long as your speech is tolerated.

Today, I can rant and rave about privacy and speech. I can discuss the balances of government power and individual rights. I exercise that right with impunity because it is legal to do so and because the government doesn't have the technological means to prevent me from doing so.

If it becomes illegal, where will I have that conversation? Only verbally, and I'll be wanting to do it in the absence of any smart device. The advances of technology, data analysis, and corporate collaboration with government are making it exceedingly difficult to have truly private communication. Free speech is contingent on privacy.

So we're at a point where the government demands a back-door to all information information that is written as a result of my digital communication. For me, it's just a bi-product of my speech. I consider these digital devices to be as fundamental to our ability to communicate as our biological means. The data generated from this communication is not desired, but the speech cannot occur without it.

There will be harm to freedom of speech if the government gains access to all cell phone data. Whichever way you want to rationalize it, the harm will still occur.

The government can't force people to wear listening devices to prevent vocal communication from becoming lost evidence. They can't force corporations to plant listening devices all over the place, to prevent it. They can't directly monitor free speech without a warrant. Sure, the times have changed, but the spirit is to ensure that the balances of power are retained between people and the government. We need to examine these issues in that true spirit of the constitution. We need to gauge the threat that's actually being imposed upon the spirit of our inalienable rights, not just their rigid definitions.

It's a question of priority. What's the greater threat? Is it a greater threat to have our privacy undermined, and our freedom of speech undermined as a result? Or, is it a greater threat to allow our government to force a business to plant surveillance backdoors into otherwise private devices?

Well, looking at historical precedent, I'd say governments run amok are the greatest threat to a great nation. I'd say this is definitely a privacy issue, and I'd say freedom of speech is forever tied to a right to privacy.
Edited by Mookster - 2/29/16 at 8:08am
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post #182 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

'snip'

But, it's not.

Right now, this is a 4th amendment issue.

It is not a 1st amendment issue until the 4th, is dealt with.

Again, do I agree with what the Gov't is doing? No, absolutely not - I'm 100% on your side in regards to a backdoor.

Do I agree with what Apple is doing? No, absolutely not. Apple has made this entire situation, into an issue it's not. It's not directly a 1st amendment issue. It's a 4th amendment issue and had Apple actually had tact and handled this differently, we wouldn't be here.

Apple has NEVER, NOT ONCE, unlocked a phone for a law enforcement officer. NEVER NOT ONCE, unlocked a phone in regards to terrorism, drug trafficking, child trafficking, murder, theft, etc. NOT ONCE. Not even when the evidence supports the findings has Apple unlocked a phone for that authority.

Think about that for a minute.

1000s upon 1000s of devices sit in evidence lockers because criminals got smart. They text over Imessage which means the carrier doesn't get a copy and they turn off backups...Without apple, there is no recovery of that evidence. There are no emails. No cells. No pictures. Nothing. 1000s upon 1000s of criminals, victims, associates will never see justice.

Now you sit here and say that, there shouldn't be justice because your right to privacy supersedes their right to justice.

Why spend $5,000.00 on burn phones when all you have to do is drop $100.00 for a 5c and there's NO WAY to ever recover that data?

Should Apple really protect the privacy of criminals? When evidence supports the phone was used to facilitate a crime?
post #183 of 234
"Now you sit here and say that, there shouldn't be justice because your right to privacy supersedes their right to justice."

Yes.
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post #184 of 234
Quote:
How are you supposed to gather evidence when it exists in it's entirety on said device?

Except it doesn't. Unless drug dealers can actually create, store, and sell drugs...the entire process....on the phone. What happened to monitoring a drug dealer's movements and catching him in the process of selling or storing it? If all you have your case built on is what might be on a phone, that is poor police work.

Police have been bypassing complete steps in evidence gathering. You can get emails and texts without having the phone. There is a difference between the following: "We think this guy has been communicating with a known drug dealer. Search the phone records for this guy calling this number. If they have a match, give me the contents of that email/text" and "We think this guy might be a drug dealer, give me every personal detail about him without me having to give you much of anything to go off of."
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post #185 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozne View Post

Except it doesn't. Unless drug dealers can actually create, store, and sell drugs...the entire process....on the phone. What happened to monitoring a drug dealer's movements and catching him in the process of selling or storing it? If all you have your case built on is what might be on a phone, that is poor police work.

Police have been bypassing complete steps in evidence gathering. You can get emails and texts without having the phone. There is a difference between the following: "We think this guy has been communicating with a known drug dealer. Search the phone records for this guy calling this number. If they have a match, give me the contents of that email/text" and "We think this guy might be a drug dealer, give me every personal detail about him without me having to give you much of anything to go off of."

You're not following. I'll clarify.

Services like KiK and a few others, only store data on the phone. There is absolutely no off-line data, everything is stored on the phone.

This is not the era of Sherlocke Holmes where a tailing is all that's necessary. We now need further evidence to convict criminals.

When all of your evidence is stored on that device and you can't get in, you're left with circumstance and a 10 year guaranteed sentence becomes a 5 year circumstantial sentence where the drug dealer gets out in 1 on good behavior/parole because the original sentence couldn't been enforced.

Or, as I saw very recently in NYC - A child trafficking case, the criminal in question got 5 years as opposed to the 5/6 life sentences he would've received because they couldn't get into his phone for the evidence necessary.

Again, they don't call each-other anymore, that goes across network. You're smarter than that frozne.

The reality here is that you're clearly not "in the know" on how kids and/or criminals are communicating since there are 5/6 major services on the Iphone, itself that allow said data to ONLY exist on the phone. Imsgs - On the phone, only. - Photos? On the phone, only. Snapchat? Phone, ONLY.

Including several email services that only exist on the phone, itself.

There are private browsers that actually block the provider's ability to see said content as well.

So again, there is reasonable plausibility in regards to what the FBI is asking, even though it overreaches. Apple has the opportunity to propose a compromise and they should.

Welcome to 2016.
post #186 of 234
Quote:
Services like KiK and a few others, only store data on the phone. There is absolutely no off-line data, everything is stored on the phone.

Including several email services that only exist on the phone, itself.

Storing data and getting access to data are two different things. There is no such thing as an email service or a message service that only exists on the phone. Turn on airplane mode and see if those services still work. They won't. Kik messages and all emails go through your internet/cell service provider based on if you are on 4g/wifi. They are required by law (in the United States) to log everything that gets sent. So in that case you aren't talking about Apple, you are talking about ISPs.

If the service encrypts the traffic so the providers can't see it, I would find it hard to believe they won't encrypt the data storage on the local phone as well where you would need a passcode to get that information.

I do think that if there is the right amount of evidence it should be unlocked, the problem is relying on the evidence you get from that. If Apple unlocks the phone and its encrypted, then what? Are you going after the encryption service? So you catch one person, everyone finds out the encryption service isn't safe anymore and switch to another one. When does it end? When nothing is capable of being private anymore for anyone?
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post #187 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozne View Post

Storing data and getting access to data are two different things. There is no such thing as an email service or a message service that only exists on the phone. Turn on airplane mode and see if those services still work. They won't. Kik messages and all emails go through your internet/cell service provider based on if you are on 4g/wifi. They are required by law (in the United States) to log everything that gets sent. So in that case you aren't talking about Apple, you are talking about ISPs.

If the service encrypts the traffic so the providers can't see it, I would find it hard to believe they won't encrypt the data storage on the local phone as well where you would need a passcode to get that information.

I do think that if there is the right amount of evidence it should be unlocked, the problem is relying on the evidence you get from that. If Apple unlocks the phone and its encrypted, then what? Are you going after the encryption service? So you catch one person, everyone finds out the encryption service isn't safe anymore and switch to another one. When does it end? When nothing is capable of being private anymore for anyone?

Yes sir, there are email services and messenger services that only host on the phone - Again, I have a blackphone and it's the same concept...

Yes the provider can log the encrypted message and spend the next 20 years opening it or, one could gain access and simply open KiK. So, yes, in that case you are talking about Apple because all relevant data is stored on the host product.

They don't actually, you download, enter a password and go - Clearly, you're not on KiK, SC etc so...

There is no problem relying on the evidence you get from a criminal because none of the services are encrypted (yet) on the device themselves because they don't have to be.

Again, you're opening a can of worms without a can-opener. We haven't even been able to reach a compromise.

Is it really going to take another 9-11 for Apple to actually start breaking their own product on a 1x1 basis? Is it going to take something bigger? Where's the line.

Again, child trafficking, my buddy worked the case - Perp EXCLUSIVELY used his phone to buy/sell/trade people, children - The LEA couldn't break the phone so, all they got him for was a Class-B felony...He'll be out in 2 years on parole - Just start doing the same thing with the same phone because Apple stands by it's users right to privacy, even if you're a scumbag.

I'm not emotionally involved nor making an emotional judgement but, that's sickening. Really sickening.
post #188 of 234
Quote:
Yes sir, there are email services and messenger services that only host on the phone - Again, I have a blackphone and it's the same concept...

I think you are misunderstanding the networking concepts. There is a difference between hosting peer to peer and communicating through a service. Even if KiK is peer to peer, all incoming and outgoing messages use your ISP/cell provider, they just might not go through the KiK network. There is no way to communicate with another device without that type of network, unless you are doing something like NFC, which in that case why not just talk to the person?
Quote:
There is no problem relying on the evidence you get from a criminal because none of the services are encrypted (yet) on the device themselves because they don't have to be.

That is my point, yet. Even if KiK encrypts over the line so the ISP's cant see it, but doesn't encrypt the storage. Alright. Apple unlocks one phone, the police read the KiK messages and arrest one person. No one uses KiK anymore and starts using an app that encrypts everything. Where will that end?
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post #189 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

But, it's not.

Right now, this is a 4th amendment issue.

It is not a 1st amendment issue until the 4th, is dealt with.

Again, do I agree with what the Gov't is doing? No, absolutely not - I'm 100% on your side in regards to a backdoor.

Do I agree with what Apple is doing? No, absolutely not. Apple has made this entire situation, into an issue it's not. It's not directly a 1st amendment issue. It's a 4th amendment issue and had Apple actually had tact and handled this differently, we wouldn't be here.

Apple has NEVER, NOT ONCE, unlocked a phone for a law enforcement officer. NEVER NOT ONCE, unlocked a phone in regards to terrorism, drug trafficking, child trafficking, murder, theft, etc. NOT ONCE. Not even when the evidence supports the findings has Apple unlocked a phone for that authority.

Think about that for a minute.

1000s upon 1000s of devices sit in evidence lockers because criminals got smart. They text over Imessage which means the carrier doesn't get a copy and they turn off backups...Without apple, there is no recovery of that evidence. There are no emails. No cells. No pictures. Nothing. 1000s upon 1000s of criminals, victims, associates will never see justice.

Now you sit here and say that, there shouldn't be justice because your right to privacy supersedes their right to justice.

Why spend $5,000.00 on burn phones when all you have to do is drop $100.00 for a 5c and there's NO WAY to ever recover that data?

Should Apple really protect the privacy of criminals? When evidence supports the phone was used to facilitate a crime?
Apple isn't protecting the privacy of criminals. It's protecting privacy.

When the government protects your right to privacy by requiring an official to get a warrant before committing an otherwise illegal act against you, they aren't protecting criminals.

When a business or individual provides you with encryption so that you can have a fully private conversation, the government can't use legal action against them for doing so. Impenetrable encryption is a product, and it's not to protect criminals. It's to protect privacy.

Privacy and freedom of speech go hand in hand. You won't have one without the other. The cellphone is the most prominent vassel of human speech. Damage the privacy of digital communication and you will damage the right to privacy and the right to free speech.

We die for our rights. We fight all our wars in the name of preserving our freedom. We do it because we refuse to be ruled over by a government that doesn't respect our inalienable Human Rights.

This government is trying to use our emotional responses to these situations as a means of getting what they want, and I'm not convinced that they're primarily concerned with our safety. I think they're concerned with making their job easier, reducing their own fear of failure, and getting personal satisfaction out of their job.

If they were primarily concerned with protecting us, they'd recognize the threat of passing these tools to their next generation. The greatest nations in history were destroyed from within, and with the applause of their populace. We aren't inherently different; we can go down the same slippery slopes.

Terrorism has always been a reality. There will always be events like this; it's not a new concept. You will destroy your nation if you let fear dictate the way you fight it. That's how organized terrorism is supposed to work, by the way.
History is a great example of that. The founding fathers talked about it at great length, too.

I want corporations to produce perfect encryption. I want individuals to be capable of this too. I really don't care if evidence exists and no one has access to it; that's a reality we need to come to terms with in various circumstances because we live in a society founded on the belief that our government is and will always be the greatest threat to our well-being.

Apple should cause a stink about all this. Our nation needs to be full of alarmists to retain our freedom, and I'm glad that Apple is taking this nation and it's privacy seriously.

You can't get a warrant to force Apple to make non-private privacy software. It'll never happen.

You can't make it illegal to create privacy empowering software.

You can't equate protecting privacy to protecting terrorism.

The answer should be obvious. A digital trail exists for almost everything; it's a function of the device and a function of the market to provide us with a means of communication and getting media. Just because extensive records are required for functionality, doesn't mean that functionality needs to be built with intent or disassembled for the purposes of government.

Things have clearly gotten out of hand when the government holds inventors responsible for undermining privacy. You can't force safe makers to crack their own safes.

If the government can convince the tax payers that it's worthwhile, then let them have a warrant and let them try.
Edited by Mookster - 2/29/16 at 11:32am
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post #190 of 234
So your a guilty until prevent innocent kinda guy, masked.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone