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[MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Page 20

post #191 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post

So your a guilty until prevent innocent kinda guy, masked.

Well we know the guy in this case was guilty. And I am sure his phone contains information that the FBI needs. I sure wish the parties involved could come to some sort of compromise. And if they don't, I think Apple will eventually be forced to give in some how.
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post #192 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post

So your a guilty until prevent innocent kinda guy, masked.

No.

It's a 2 way street, my friend. Like the child trafficker. Even were he to admit he sold 20+ children under the age of 15, all of the proof lies on 1 device that, due to it's creators, will never be cracked...And that's daily...Daily.

Then, next time they return to the streets, they get smarter...They know the tricks you used last time, like brute-forcing their phone, that got them 10-20 so, now that they're out playing the "game" again, they won't make the same mistake twice...Now they won't email directly or call because the carrier will rat them out.

Or the dealers in the slums in Brooklyn that give away free heroin to the kids on KiK just to get them hooked...Can't prove it either because the entire network is P2P...Need the phone.

Or, in this case, terrorists that we know are terrorists that went on a rampage and killed people. Terrorists that we know are part of a cell...An active cell.

See the truth is that 90% of you will never experience the realities of this world. - You'll sit at a desk, behind a computer and cling to privacy in a nice warm office...But, the reality is that it's a 2 way street...It's always been a 2 way street, you just never experience the other side of the road. The other side of the road isn't as clean as that nice office, it's messy - Always has been. So you and I, will always have very different opinions about who's guilty.

In the case of a known terrorist, that phone should've been cracked on day 1...There's a larger threat involved that takes precedent over the privacy of 1 device.
post #193 of 234
So say that Apple releases this crack and then people in oppressive counties got their phones phones opened up, and then stoned for saying bad things about their government. How do you feel about that?

It is indeed a two way street.
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post #194 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post

So say that Apple releases this crack and then people in oppressive counties got their phones phones opened up, and then stoned for saying bad things about their government. How do you feel about that?

It is indeed a two way street.

Considering those govt's already spy on those individuals and already stone them for saying bad things about their govt's - Not a whole lot is going to change there regardless of phone encryption.

We're not discussing those countries...Because cellular laws actually vary by country/region.

We're discussing this as it relates to the US.

As it relates to the US - As Criminal pointed out - We have the phone of a KNOWN terrorist that committed acts of terrorism, on US soil. There is no question as to their innocence or guilt - They were/are guilty of Terrorism. Therefor, the phone, is the property of a terrorist and therefor, deserves no clemency.
post #195 of 234
@Masked

Did that guy who sold children send them over the phone? Did he "aquire" them over the phone?

Does the drug dealer get/make his drugs over the phone? Does he give it to others over the phone?

You can't say that this angle is required. Every crime that involves physical objects (be it drugs, persons, explosives, or whatever) has a physical trail. That's a given, and authorities should use people who are competent in following that trail.

There's also the matter of incompetent officers, agents, etc (don't pretend that they don't exist, this is once again a given) who use fearmongering and false investigations to justify their positions. Giving them the means ot spy on anybody and everybody just gives them a way to look busy. I'm not saying that terrorism doesn't exist, but I do get the idea that it's been blown out of proportion.
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post #196 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Considering those govt's already spy on those individuals and already stone them for saying bad things about their govt's - Not a whole lot is going to change there regardless of phone encryption.

We're not discussing those countries...Because cellular laws actually vary by country/region.

We're discussing this as it relates to the US.

As it relates to the US - As Criminal pointed out - We have the phone of a KNOWN terrorist that committed acts of terrorism, on US soil. There is no question as to their innocence or guilt - They were/are guilty of Terrorism. Therefor, the phone, is the property of a terrorist and therefor, deserves no clemency.

Wat and double wat. You said earlier how they use imessage for P2P communications. How do know that isn't their primary form of long distance talks about unapproved things. It might get used tremendously.

This only applies to America? So you care about kids doing drugs in America, but not innocent people on other countries? You are for it, but only looking at the American side of things. This thread is about all the consequences, everywhere iphones are sold.
Edited by nvidiaftw12 - 2/29/16 at 1:52pm
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post #197 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKuhn View Post

@Masked

Did that guy who sold children send them over the phone? Did he "aquire" them over the phone?

Does the drug dealer get/make his drugs over the phone? Does he give it to others over the phone?

You can't say that this angle is required. Every crime that involves physical objects (be it drugs, persons, explosives, or whatever) has a physical trail. That's a given, and authorities should use people who are competent in following that trail.

There's also the matter of incompetent officers, agents, etc (don't pretend that they don't exist, this is once again a given) who use fearmongering and false investigations to justify their positions. Giving them the means ot spy on anybody and everybody just gives them a way to look busy. I'm not saying that terrorism doesn't exist, but I do get the idea that it's been blown out of proportion.

Physical evidence still requires a trail. Having the person being trafficked doesn't help as much as you think it does. Ask any criminal lawyer. 90% of that case is based on communication and if there isn't any...It becomes incredibly difficult to persecute. It really doesn't matter how competent you are when 90% of your case revolves around the 1 item by which, nobody can gain access.

I do agree that the fear--mongering by our gov't is unnecessary but, that doesn't mean that Apple standing by and doing nothing when, this phone could be used as evidence, is the right thing, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post

Wat and double wat. You said earlier how they use imessahe for P2P communications. How do know that isn't their primary form of long distance talks about unnaproved things. It might get used tremendously.

This only applies to America? So you care about kids doing drugs in America, but not innocent people on other countries? You are for it, but only looking at the American side of things. This thread is about all the consequences, everywhere iphones are sold.

I said how apps like KiK were used for direct communication. Kik isn't available in other regions or countries. You're clearly not "up" on other region's cell-phone laws my friend...Use a VPN/Proxy to hide behind a wall and skype...There are hundreds of communications that aren't traceable...Hell, send a letter. Burn the evidence.

This specific case does. This, right now, is an American issue. Were it French, the French would've already broken the phone. Same with the English, Germans, Italians, Greeks - European countries handle terrorists and acts of terrorism VERY DIFFERENTLY than we do. I'd suggest you take a 101 course, anywhere and inform yourself on other Govt's political policies because you're clearly, uninformed.

Also, you're ASSUMING, major assumption, this would impact all Iphones - we have no proof of that. Interesting fact, our Iphones are actually unique compared to the other regions and are further individualized per carrier...So, your assumption is that this would be world-wide when, you actually have no evidence it's leaving the 4 corners of this country.

We're basing this argument on facts. Hard facts. Not assumptions.
post #198 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKuhn View Post

@Masked

Did that guy who sold children send them over the phone? Did he "aquire" them over the phone?

Does the drug dealer get/make his drugs over the phone? Does he give it to others over the phone?

You can't say that this angle is required. Every crime that involves physical objects (be it drugs, persons, explosives, or whatever) has a physical trail. That's a given, and authorities should use people who are competent in following that trail.

There's also the matter of incompetent officers, agents, etc (don't pretend that they don't exist, this is once again a given) who use fearmongering and false investigations to justify their positions. Giving them the means ot spy on anybody and everybody just gives them a way to look busy. I'm not saying that terrorism doesn't exist, but I do get the idea that it's been blown out of proportion.

Humans make mistakes. The authorities are humans. Yes there are lazy ones, but there are also good ones. They can't be everywhere to stop every crime that happens. Plus, I am sure the deranged people out there out number the authorities as well. Pedophiles, terrorists, murders... they will always find a way to get things done. They now have a device they know they can use and get away with parts of the crime. And as screwy as the court system is these days, some of the most incriminating evidence is usually somewhere on an electronic device and without it they can get off with a slap on the wrist. And if it happens to be an iPhone, well crap.
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post #199 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

Humans make mistakes. The authorities are humans. Yes there are lazy ones, but there are also good ones. They can't be everywhere to stop every crime that happens. Plus, I am sure the deranged people out there out number the authorities as well. Pedophiles, terrorists, murders... they will always find a way to get things done. They now have a device they know they can use and get away with parts of the crime. And as screwy as the court system is these days, some of the most incriminating evidence is usually somewhere on an electronic device and without it they can get off with a slap on the wrist. And if it happens to be an iPhone, well crap.

Intersting username.

Sure, I agree with you about the authorities being humans and all that, and they should be allowed to do their work. But, people should also be very careful about how much power the authorities get. As they say: "power corrupts, and absolute power absolutely corrupts".

To give an example (not to any specific person) of how the authorities use fearmongering, just think of piracy. Sure, I'm aware that there are those who use piracy as a means to make money (and applying common sense makes it clear that some of that money must be for funding illegal activities), but I get the impression that the authorities like to paint the picture that piracy automatically means you're supporting funding terrorists (which is not true, I'm sure you're all aware of all the free sharing all around us). Just to make it clear, I'm not saying that piracy is fine, I'm just pointing out how some people high up use manipulation for their own personal gain.

EDIT: Just changed the wording to make something clearer.
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post #200 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

No.

It's a 2 way street, my friend. Like the child trafficker. Even were he to admit he sold 20+ children under the age of 15, all of the proof lies on 1 device that, due to it's creators, will never be cracked...And that's daily...Daily.

Then, next time they return to the streets, they get smarter...They know the tricks you used last time, like brute-forcing their phone, that got them 10-20 so, now that they're out playing the "game" again, they won't make the same mistake twice...Now they won't email directly or call because the carrier will rat them out.

Or the dealers in the slums in Brooklyn that give away free heroin to the kids on KiK just to get them hooked...Can't prove it either because the entire network is P2P...Need the phone.

Or, in this case, terrorists that we know are terrorists that went on a rampage and killed people. Terrorists that we know are part of a cell...An active cell.

See the truth is that 90% of you will never experience the realities of this world. - You'll sit at a desk, behind a computer and cling to privacy in a nice warm office...But, the reality is that it's a 2 way street...It's always been a 2 way street, you just never experience the other side of the road. The other side of the road isn't as clean as that nice office, it's messy - Always has been. So you and I, will always have very different opinions about who's guilty.

In the case of a known terrorist, that phone should've been cracked on day 1...There's a larger threat involved that takes precedent over the privacy of 1 device.

This is what so many people don't know or don't realize. The potential to save lives or track down those who would take lives trumps people concern over a violation of privacy!! It never fails to amaze me. In the wake of a tragic event such as what happen in CA, 911, etc, etc so many people come down on those of us who are trying to protect people and prevents things like this. "You didn't do enough!!!" they say. "You should have done ......." they say after the fact. But when we try to get the tools we need to protect lives, prevent incidents like CA and 911, and hunt down those who take lives, "You're going too far," "You're doing too much" they say. Well guess what people you can't have it both ways.
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