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[MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Page 21

post #201 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Physical evidence still requires a trail. Having the person being trafficked doesn't help as much as you think it does. Ask any criminal lawyer. 90% of that case is based on communication and if there isn't any...It becomes incredibly difficult to persecute. It really doesn't matter how competent you are when 90% of your case revolves around the 1 item by which, nobody can gain access.

I do agree that the fear--mongering by our gov't is unnecessary but, that doesn't mean that Apple standing by and doing nothing when, this phone could be used as evidence, is the right thing, either.
I said how apps like KiK were used for direct communication. Kik isn't available in other regions or countries. You're clearly not "up" on other region's cell-phone laws my friend...Use a VPN/Proxy to hide behind a wall and skype...There are hundreds of communications that aren't traceable...Hell, send a letter. Burn the evidence.

This specific case does. This, right now, is an American issue. Were it French, the French would've already broken the phone. Same with the English, Germans, Italians, Greeks - European countries handle terrorists and acts of terrorism VERY DIFFERENTLY than we do. I'd suggest you take a 101 course, anywhere and inform yourself on other Govt's political policies because you're clearly, uninformed.

Also, you're ASSUMING, major assumption, this would impact all Iphones - we have no proof of that. Interesting fact, our Iphones are actually unique compared to the other regions and are further individualized per carrier...So, your assumption is that this would be world-wide when, you actually have no evidence it's leaving the 4 corners of this country.

We're basing this argument on facts. Hard facts. Not assumptions.

When the alternative is opening Pandora's box and most likely releasing a backdoor to the wild, doing nothing is absolutely the right thing to do. The government is absolutely the last entity I want to have this sort of access and the government is far lower than my fundamental right to privacy as both you and I know the government will not stop with just 1 or 12 phones. Last month is one phone, last week was twelve phones, and next year will be what... all phones? If Apple loses here, Google and others will be next. I am fine with small numbers of people being affected here and there to preserve my fundamental rights.
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post #202 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC'ing Noob View Post

When the alternative is opening Pandora's box and most likely releasing a backdoor to the wild, doing nothing is absolutely the right thing to do. The government is absolutely the last entity I want to have this sort of access and the government is far lower than my fundamental right to privacy as both you and I know the government will not stop with just 1 or 12 phones. Last month is one phone, last week was twelve phones, and next year will be what... all phones? If Apple loses here, Google and others will be next. I am fine with small numbers of people being affected here and there to preserve my fundamental rights.

That's just it, sir.

It's not a small number of people, it's everyone, we're all effected by this, already.

You yell at the police and FBI for not solving cases when, they can't. Not due to competence, due to PRIVACY ISSUES, these very issues.

I'm not saying that giving the Gov't access is the RIGHT thing to do - Nay, sir. I'm saying that Apple doing nothing, is equally as "criminal" given the facts present.

These weren't suspects or suspected terrorists - There were known terrorists that committed terrorism on US soil. Those are two VERY DIFFERENT things especially since there is no reasonable doubt.
post #203 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by aludka View Post

This is what so many people don't know or don't realize. The potential to save lives or track down those who would take lives trumps people concern over a violation of privacy!! It never fails to amaze me. In the wake of a tragic event such as what happen in CA, 911, etc, etc so many people come down on those of us who are trying to protect people and prevents things like this. "You didn't do enough!!!" they say. "You should have done ......." they say after the fact. But when we try to get the tools we need to protect lives, prevent incidents like CA and 911, and hunt down those who take lives, "You're going too far," "You're doing too much" they say. Well guess what people you can't have it both ways.

In that case, why don't they install cameras and microphones to monitor every square meter of the planet (including every bedroom and bathroom in every building)? And while they're at it, they can also put armed soldiers on every street corner. Just to be sure.

I know this comment is a bit exessive, but I'm trying to bring my point across. You can't give authorities absolute power.

Oh, and also see the comment above by OC'ing Noob.
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post #204 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

That's just it, sir.

It's not a small number of people, it's everyone, we're all effected by this, already.

You yell at the police and FBI for not solving cases when, they can't. Not due to competence, due to PRIVACY ISSUES, these very issues.

I'm not saying that giving the Gov't access is the RIGHT thing to do - Nay, sir. I'm saying that Apple doing nothing, is equally as "criminal" given the facts present.

These weren't suspects or suspected terrorists - There were known terrorists that committed terrorism on US soil. Those are two VERY DIFFERENT things especially since there is no reasonable doubt.

Maybe instead of spending so much countries sticking our noses into foreign concerns and focusing more on ways to secure our home front in the face of rapidly improving technology, we wouldn't actually be in this situation. Again, I could care less if it was suspected or known, they lives they take do NOT justify giving the government access. Not doing anything is way more right on the ethics spectrum than granting additional power to our already very powerful government. Terrorists hardly put a dent in our overall population. The job of a terrorist is to terrorize people. 20-30 people dead can be easily replaced in the short run. Opening Pandora's Box by giving government a backdoor access to one of the most popular phones in the world? The few lives lost (as callous as it sounds) is worth keeping that box closed. In short, I trust corporations far more than I would ever trust our own government. At least we almost always know where a company's interest lies. As far as the government goes, not even close.
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post #205 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC'ing Noob View Post

When the alternative is opening Pandora's box and most likely releasing a backdoor to the wild, doing nothing is absolutely the right thing to do. The government is absolutely the last entity I want to have this sort of access and the government is far lower than my fundamental right to privacy as both you and I know the government will not stop with just 1 or 12 phones. Last month is one phone, last week was twelve phones, and next year will be what... all phones? If Apple loses here, Google and others will be next. I am fine with small numbers of people being affected here and there to preserve my fundamental rights.

It's easy to say that when your not one of those "small people being affected." I'd like to see you have the same attitude when you lose a loved one to an incident that could have been prevented, but didn't because of someones concern over their privacy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JKuhn View Post

In that case, why don't they install cameras and microphones to monitor every square meter of the planet (including every bedroom and bathroom in every building)? And while they're at it, they can also put armed soldiers on every street corner. Just to be sure.

I know this comment is a bit exessive, but I'm trying to bring my point across. You can't give authorities absolute power.

Oh, and also see the comment above by OC'ing Noob.

I'm not saying we need to give absolute power. But the bad guys have no rules to play by. They do what they want and how they want to do it. We obviously can't let the good guys do what they want and they want to do it either, but we have got to even the playing field. Otherwise we will always be on the losing and reactionary side. Is that really the world you want to live in.
post #206 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC'ing Noob View Post

Maybe instead of spending so much countries sticking our noses into foreign concerns and focusing more on ways to secure our home front in the face of rapidly improving technology, we wouldn't actually be in this situation. Again, I could care less if it was suspected or known, they lives they take do NOT justify giving the government access. Not doing anything is way more right on the ethics spectrum than granting additional power to our already very powerful government. Terrorists hardly put a dent in our overall population. The job of a terrorist is to terrorize people. 20-30 people dead can be easily replaced in the short run. Opening Pandora's Box by giving government a backdoor access to one of the most popular phones in the world? The few lives lost (as callous as it sounds) is worth keeping that box closed. In short, I trust corporations far more than I would ever trust our own government. At least we almost always know where a company's interest lies. As far as the government goes, not even close.

Also, while this may not sound very nice, but the planet is insanely overpopulated. Sure, it's easy to say something like this when you're not the one losing loved ones, but it's a fact (by the way, I've lost several people close to me recently, and that's also a fact of life).

aludka: While it's good to strive for a crime-free world, I'm afraid that won't happen (at least not because of the actions of humans, but let's not go deeper into that). After-all, it's human nature we're talking about. I also wouldn't call it a losing battle. Just an eternal one.
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post #207 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post


Physical evidence still requires a trail. Having the person being trafficked doesn't help as much as you think it does. Ask any criminal lawyer. 90% of that case is based on communication and if there isn't any...It becomes incredibly difficult to persecute. It really doesn't matter how competent you are when 90% of your case revolves around the 1 item by which, nobody can gain access.

I do agree that the fear--mongering by our gov't is unnecessary but, that doesn't mean that Apple standing by and doing nothing when, this phone could be used as evidence, is the right thing, either.
I said how apps like KiK were used for direct communication. Kik isn't available in other regions or countries. You're clearly not "up" on other region's cell-phone laws my friend...Use a VPN/Proxy to hide behind a wall and skype...There are hundreds of communications that aren't traceable...Hell, send a letter. Burn the evidence.

This specific case does. This, right now, is an American issue. Were it French, the French would've already broken the phone. Same with the English, Germans, Italians, Greeks - European countries handle terrorists and acts of terrorism VERY DIFFERENTLY than we do. I'd suggest you take a 101 course, anywhere and inform yourself on other Govt's political policies because you're clearly, uninformed.

Also, you're ASSUMING, major assumption, this would impact all Iphones - we have no proof of that. Interesting fact, our Iphones are actually unique compared to the other regions and are further individualized per carrier...So, your assumption is that this would be world-wide when, you actually have no evidence it's leaving the 4 corners of this country.

We're basing this argument on facts. Hard facts. Not assumptions.

 

Wrong. I was listening to a NPR piece talking with an ex investigator, who worked with the FBI on phone cases and Tim Cook. That was one thing brought up.

 

IOS is IOS.

 

Basing this argument on facts. lol Apparently we are basing it on the fear of one person.

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post #208 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by aludka View Post

It's easy to say that when your not one of those "small people being affected." I'd like to see you have the same attitude when you lose a loved one to an incident that could have been prevented, but didn't because of someones concern over their privacy...
I'm not saying we need to give absolute power. But the bad guys have no rules to play by. They do what they want and how they want to do it. We obviously can't let the good guys do what they want and they want to do it either, but we have got to even the playing field. Otherwise we will always be on the losing and reactionary side. Is that really the world you want to live in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKuhn View Post

Also, while this may not sound very nice, but the planet is insanely overpopulated. Sure, it's easy to say something like this when you're not the one losing loved ones, but it's a fact (by the way, I've lost several people close to me recently, and that's also a fact of life).

aludka: While it's good to strive for a crime-free world, I'm afraid that won't happen (at least not because of the actions of humans, but let's not go deeper into that). After-all, it's human nature we're talking about. I also wouldn't call it a losing battle. Just an eternal one.

People always act emotionally when a loved one is affected and that is when humans are at their dumbest IMO. The fact that this is a reaction made when overly emotional tells me precisely that it would be a horrible idea. In short, humans respond in incredibly stupid fashion when our emotional levels are escalated.
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post #209 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidiaftw12 View Post

Wrong. I was listening to a NPR piece talking with an ex investigator, who worked with the FBI on phone cases and Tim Cook. That was one thing brought up.

IOS is IOS.

Basing this argument on facts. lol Apparently we are basing it on the fear of one person.

Again more assumptions.

1 investigator on NPR apparently now carries the word of god.

I never once said the IOS was different, I said the phones are which, is actually an absolute fact.

That being said, you're now making the assumption that Apple couldn't change that "practice" - Again, we're assuming he's correct since you have no correlating facts - and separate the OS by region...Thus again, solving the entirety of this issue. rolleyes.gif
post #210 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Right now, in your local PD, on AVERAGE there are 3-4 Iphones PER UNIT that sit in evidence lockers that belong to latent criminals. Some murdered, some raped, some were actually terrorists, some belong to individuals that were murdered...They sit there, unused - With evidence, real EVIDENCE that cannot be used in the court of law, because law enforcement can't gain access and Apple refuses to help even on a 1x1 basis.
This perfectly explains your misunderstanding of the law and how evidence works.

None of these "criminals" are actually rapists, murderers, terrorists, etc; until the court has met it's burden to prove so (the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing).

This next bit perfectly explains your entrapment in an realist/security ideology:
Quote:
Apple won't even agree to a 1x1 unlocking of the phones...Meanwhile there's a legitimate terrorist CELL still somewhere, we have no idea. Thousands of cases go unsolved, yearly...
"SOMEWHERE, there's a legitimate terrorist cell - we have no idea." rolleyes.gif That's not a slippery slope if I've heard one...
Quote:
Originally Posted by frozne View Post

When people think like that, they should be upset with the police force, not with Apple. If your whole case of determining guilt or innocence hangs on what MIGHT be on a phone (which you don't know for sure what is on there) then you have failed in gathering evidence.
Any decent (that is non-scumbag) prosecuting attorney will tell you exactly this. If they're relying on evidence based on conjecture they have a weak case. Any decent defense attorney will rip apart metadata and GPS with relative ease (given the number of judges across the country who dismiss the evidence).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

So you should be upset with the police if your case, determining the guilt of a felon, rests in that criminals communicative device?

How do you think drug dealers communicate? Smoke signals?

Why use a burn phone when your Iphone is guaranteed to be secure by Apple and they fight for it?

How about terrorists? You don't think they use phone-only email accounts? Text?

How are you supposed to gather evidence when it exists in it's entirety on said device?

...The ignorance, it's real.
I don't think you understand how this works.

It is highly unlikely that there's evidence that will directly lead to a prosecution on that phone, or any phone.

Prosecutors use the evidence obtained from phones to complete timelines and implicate a potential criminal. I challenge you to find a single court case where a terrorist cell or gang was brought to it's knees through evidence produced through communications. At best you'll find alibis proven false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

But, it's not.

Right now, this is a 4th amendment issue.

It is not a 1st amendment issue until the 4th, is dealt with.
This is true, but probably something you should consider more seriously...
Quote:
Apple has NEVER, NOT ONCE, unlocked a phone for a law enforcement officer. NEVER NOT ONCE, unlocked a phone in regards to terrorism, drug trafficking, child trafficking, murder, theft, etc. NOT ONCE. Not even when the evidence supports the findings has Apple unlocked a phone for that authority.
While this is true, they have pulled data from thousands of phones without unlocking them.

Has Google unlocked any phones for the FBI?

HTC? Microsoft?

"Think about that for a minute."
Quote:
1000s upon 1000s of devices sit in evidence lockers because criminals got smart. They text over Imessage which means the carrier doesn't get a copy and they turn off backups...Without apple, there is no recovery of that evidence. There are no emails. No cells. No pictures. Nothing. 1000s upon 1000s of criminals, victims, associates will never see justice.
Come on, get serious - real criminals use burners (metadata is the real threat to criminals). This is fear-mongering at it's best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Again, child trafficking, my buddy worked the case - Perp EXCLUSIVELY used his phone to buy/sell/trade people, children - The LEA couldn't break the phone so, all they got him for was a Class-B felony...He'll be out in 2 years on parole - Just start doing the same thing with the same phone because Apple stands by it's users right to privacy, even if you're a scumbag.

I'm not emotionally involved nor making an emotional judgement but, that's sickening. Really sickening.
Well, clearly you are invested or it wouldn't be so "sickening," but I'm sure your buddy (assuming they're a lawyer) would also explain to you that the likelihood of reaching a conviction with that data (alone) is pretty slim, at least not attached to a timeline and less circumstantial evidence.

I stopped reading at this point so uh... my apologies.

Edit: PS: Since masked invoked the "ask any criminal lawyer" argument I suppose I should clarify that I actually am a lawyer.
Edited by claes - 2/29/16 at 2:50pm
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finally quiet
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Betty - WIP
(17 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
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Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 128GB OCZ Agility 60GB Spinpoint F3 1TB Noctua NH-U12P SE2 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
2x NF-P12, CPU OS X 10.10, 8.1 Ultimate Asus VW246H Ergotron Neo-Flex 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Quick Fire Rapid EVGA Supernova G2 850W Silverstone FT-02W CM Spawn 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone