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[MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Page 22

post #211 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by claes View Post

I challenge you to find a single court case where a terrorist cell or gang was brought to it's knees through evidence produced through communications. At best you'll find alibis proven false.
While it is not a court case, communications surveillance is what resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden. One of his go-betweens was located through monitoring of email and phones, and satellites following him lead us to the compound in Pakistan.

Even then, it was not any written information in those communications that resulted in the operation, but instead the metadata (real time, so the use of burners didn't help) that linked people to places and times.
post #212 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Again more assumptions.

1 investigator on NPR apparently now carries the word of god.

I never once said the IOS was different, I said the phones are which, is actually an absolute fact.

That being said, you're now making the assumption that Apple couldn't change that "practice" - Again, we're assuming he's correct since you have no correlating facts - and separate the OS by region...Thus again, solving the entirety of this issue. rolleyes.gif

Your talking about assumptions? Your basing your whole argument on an assumption that there is any useful information on the phone.
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post #213 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by claes View Post

This perfectly explains your misunderstanding of the law and how evidence works.

None of these "criminals" are actually rapists, murderers, terrorists, etc; until the court has met it's burden to prove so (the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing).

This next bit perfectly explains your entrapment in an realist/security ideology:
"SOMEWHERE, there's a legitimate terrorist cell - we have no idea." rolleyes.gif That's not a slippery slope if I've heard one...
Any decent (that is non-scumbag) prosecuting attorney will tell you exactly this. If they're relying on evidence based on conjecture they have a weak case. Any decent defense attorney will rip apart metadata and GPS with relative ease (given the number of judges across the country who dismiss the evidence).
I don't think you understand how this works.

It is highly unlikely that there's evidence that will directly lead to a prosecution on that phone, or any phone.

Prosecutors use the evidence obtained from phones to complete timelines and implicate a potential criminal. I challenge you to find a single court case where a terrorist cell or gang was brought to it's knees through evidence produced through communications. At best you'll find alibis proven false.
This is true, but probably something you should consider more seriously...
While this is true, they have pulled data from thousands of phones without unlocking them.

Has Google unlocked any phones for the FBI?

HTC? Microsoft?

"Think about that for a minute."
Come on, get serious - real criminals use burners (metadata is the real threat to criminals). This is fear-mongering at it's best.
Well, clearly you are invested or it wouldn't be so "sickening," but I'm sure your buddy (assuming they're a lawyer) would also explain to you that the likelihood of reaching a conviction with that data (alone) is pretty slim, at least not attached to a timeline and less circumstantial evidence.

I stopped reading at this point so uh... my apologies.

Edit: PS: Since masked invoked the "ask any criminal lawyer" argument I suppose I should clarify that I actually am a lawyer.

My lawyer was sitting next to me as I wrote most of that, as was a LT. thumb.gif

Last I checked, the NYPD has over 1200 phones they can't break that have been sent up for processing? Oh but, I stopped reading at that point so, apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diffident View Post

Your talking about assumptions? Your basing your whole argument on an assumption that there is any useful information on the phone.

I'm not making that assumption, the FBI is.
post #214 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

Well we know the guy in this case was guilty. And I am sure his phone contains information that the FBI needs. I sure wish the parties involved could come to some sort of compromise. And if they don't, I think Apple will eventually be forced to give in some how.

Bush were also "sure" there is weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and was capable of convincing the US public about that as well.

As far as this encryption case goes. It seems to be just a puppet show from my perspective to ensure that people use a communication channel which can be monitored by the said government. That guy is already nailed and he might or might not have a "cell" in the US but with all the fuss up about it even if he had a "cell" these dudes have probably digged themselves pretty deep into the ground by now. So it's a great opportunity to make a lot of noise to put some minds at ease.
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post #215 of 234
Its not apple's job to destroy the security on their own devices. Ironically, many government agencies are converting over from blackberries to iOS, presumably in part because of its security features.

The feds have been preaching about this encryption threat on phones for a long time now, theyve finally found a case where they think they can get the general public on their side and put additional pressure on Apple. They already know there is little chance there is anything useful on this guys work phone when he already destroyed his personal phones and computers. If there was anything on there he would have destroyed this as well. There is no major national security reason for them to get into this phone at all, its all about setting a legal precedent so they can do it at any time and the general public doesnt understand the details enough so its easy enough for the feds to get them on their side.

Apple already participates in PRISM, theyre acting like they never do anything to help the feds, its all BS. The feds already have access to every apple/google/yahoo email from that phone and every text message. They are trying to convince us that by some miracle, the guy took photos on it that were not automatically uploaded to icloud or possibly used an encrypted messaging application that sent something related to the shootings. Which the chances are extremely low that any data of use is on the phone that the feds dont already have access to in the first place and if the terrorist was using his work phone for that he would have destroyed it anyways like he did everything else.

The FBI's whole thing on this is not about the data on the phone at all, its about setting a legal precedent to allow them to do this whenever they want.
post #216 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Bush were also "sure" there is weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and was capable of convincing the US public about that as well.

As far as this encryption case goes. It seems to be just a puppet show from my perspective to ensure that people use a communication channel which can be monitored by the said government. That guy is already nailed and he might or might not have a "cell" in the US but with all the fuss up about it even if he had a "cell" these dudes have probably digged themselves pretty deep into the ground by now. So it's a great opportunity to make a lot of noise to put some minds at ease.

Yep, it was entirely Bush's fault we went to war. rolleyes.gif

There is enough reason in this case for the parties to compromise.
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post #217 of 234
Why don't we make it harder for terrorist to get guns? Encryption didn't kill these people. Maybe we should turn the conversation from encryption being dangerous to guns being dangerous. Why is every time a terrorist attack happens we must say the constitution no longer matters because some people died. If they can change the rules on one amendment from fear why not change them all to make us safe. WE have executed U.S citizens with drone strikes without a trial (7th Amendment). We have put people in jail indefinitely without a trail (7th amendment and 6th Amendment). We have water boarded individuals (8th Amendment). Data collection and who knows what else the NSA is doing ( 4th Amendment). What is 1 more Amendment. In England they don't have mass shootings. The 2nd Amendment has to go to keep us safe!


Can you image if the founding fathers changed their entire ideology because some people died during the American Revolution.

George Washington " did you guys see what happened in Virginia?"
Patrick Henry "Give me freedom or maybe being apart of the empire isn't so bad."
Ben Franklin " You guys are right maybe if we surrender our freedom, England will provide us with security"
Thomas Jefferson " All those in favor of pledging allegiance to the crown say Aye!"
Scared Americans " AYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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post #218 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmung View Post

Why don't we make it harder for terrorist to get guns? Encryption didn't kill these people. Maybe we should turn the conversation from encryption being dangerous to guns being dangerous. Why is every time a terrorist attack happens we must say the constitution no longer matters because some people died. If they can change the rules on one amendment from fear why not change them all to make us safe. WE have executed U.S citizens with drone strikes without a trial (7th Amendment). We have put people in jail indefinitely without a trail (7th amendment and 6th Amendment). We have water boarded individuals (8th Amendment). Data collection and who knows what else the NSA is doing ( 4th Amendment). What is 1 more Amendment. In England they don't have mass shootings. The 2nd Amendment has to go to keep us safe!


Can you image if the founding fathers changed their entire ideology because some people died during the American Revolution.

George Washington " did you guys see what happened in Virginia?"
Patrick Henry "Give me freedom or maybe being apart of the empire isn't so bad."
Ben Franklin " You guys are right maybe if we surrender our freedom, England will provide us with security"
Thomas Jefferson " All those in favor of pledging allegiance to the crown say Aye!"
Scared Americans " AYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I am all for making it harder for people to get guns. How do you propose that happens? Because right now criminals/terrorists don't obey laws when it comes to obtaining a gun anyway. More laws won't help.
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post #219 of 234
It works in England.
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post #220 of 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

I am all for making it harder for people to get guns. How do you propose that happens? Because right now criminals/terrorists don't obey laws when it comes to obtaining a gun anyway. More laws won't help.

Exactly, criminals and terrorists don't follow laws, so setting new precedence that hurts everyone else is not the direction to go. You give the government the keys to all iphones and criminals just stop using iphones, all you do is damage the privacy and data security of everyone else.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [MacRumors] Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone