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[Tweaktown] AMD wants to 'spice things up' at GDC, could tease Polaris - Page 18

post #171 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

There are some benchmarks where the 7970 easily beat the 780, using the most recent games like Star Wars Battlefront, when I say "closing the gap" I mean that while time passes the relative performance between Kepler and Tahiti is actually getting closer in favor of Tahiti and giving it enough time Tahiti should beat Kepler if the trend continues.

Also the difference between the 770 and the 7970 isn't 4%, it's more like 20% as shown in this graph, also the difference between a HD 7970 with very conservative stock clock of 1030MHz and the GTX 780 is only 10%, another reason I call that 10% as "Closing the gap" is because Tahiti is a whole Generation older launched in January / 9 / 2012 and wasn't even competing against Kepler, Kepler was a good 45% faster when it first came out putting Tahiti to its knees, but as I said before, in several new games like Star Wars Battlefront Tahiti is not only closing the gap but surpassing it.

BTW, History have shown that 5% extra performance can go a long way with consumers willing to pay premium for it, it's called Titan.

Couple of things. 680 is Kepler based as well, which was also launched in 2012. Also, have you seen the stock clocks on 780? And most of them hit 1200-1250 no problem(Mine did 1390 game stable). Overclock the 780 and gain a lot!

I do agree that the 7970 has aged very well though.
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post #172 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

There are some benchmarks where the 7970 easily beat the 780, using the most recent games like Star Wars Battlefront, when I say "closing the gap" I mean that while time passes the relative performance between Kepler and Tahiti is actually getting closer in favor of Tahiti and giving it enough time Tahiti should beat Kepler if the trend continues.

Hilbert is pretty neutral when it comes to testing cards.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/star_wars_battlefront_beta_vga_graphics_performance_benchmarks,5.html

We don't see the 780 there but we do see the 780 Ti and 770 so we have a solid baseline of where the 780 would land due to them.

780 Ti is 30% faster than the 280x at 1080p in Battlefront.

The 780 Ti was 16% faster than the 780 @ 1080p at launch.

That puts the 780 solidly ahead of the 280x not easily beat by it.

The 280x is also 11% faster than the 770.

Again, what's impressive here is that a card that used to beat the 7970 is now 11% behind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

Also the difference between the 770 and the 7970 isn't 4%, it's more like 20% as shown in this graph, also the difference between a HD 7970 with very conservative stock clock of 1030MHz and the GTX 780 is only 10%, another reason I call that 10% as "Closing the gap" is because Tahiti is a whole Generation older launched in January / 9 / 2012 and wasn't even competing against Kepler, Kepler was a good 45% faster when it first came out putting Tahiti to its knees, but as I said before, in several new games like Star Wars Battlefront Tahiti is not only closing the gap but surpassing it.

I did not say there was a 4% gap between the 770 and 7970.

I said there was an 18% gap between the 770 and 7970. And a 14% gap between the 7970 and 780. The point was you were saying one card is irrelevant because of a 14% difference while praising the other with an 18% difference. So 4% was the difference between getting praise or being called irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

BTW, History have shown that 5% extra performance can go a long way with consumers willing to pay premium for it, it's called Titan.

Some people have the cash flow to buy the very best. I'm not one of them but whether we like it or not, there is a market for that sort of thing in almost every commodity sold.
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post #173 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post


I said there was an 18% gap between the 770 and 7970. And a 14% gap between the 7970 and 780. The point was you were saying one card is irrelevant because of a 14% difference while praising the other with an 18% difference. So 4% was the difference between getting praise or being called irrelevant.

The reason I think the 680 is irrelevant is because it was competing against the HD 7970 and now it lost the battle, so its now irrelevant, the GTX 780 on the other hand is from a newer generation of cards and it is expected for them to beat the HD 7970, this is why the 14% gap between the 7970 and the 780 wont render the 7970 irrelevant, because they're simple not sharing the same generation and the 780 is expected to beat Tahiti, while the 680 is in fact from the same generation as the 7970 and should be the fair comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

Hilbert is pretty neutral when it comes to testing cards.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/star_wars_battlefront_beta_vga_graphics_performance_benchmarks,5.html

We don't see the 780 there but we do see the 780 Ti and 770 so we have a solid baseline of where the 780 would land due to them.

780 Ti is 30% faster than the 280x at 1080p in Battlefront.

The 780 Ti was 16% faster than the 780 @ 1080p at launch.

That puts the 780 solidly ahead of the 280x not easily beat by it.

The 280x is also 11% faster than the 770.

Now that is strange, because regarding this graph the GTX 780Ti is in fact 22% faster than the GTX 780, maybe at launch the difference was 16% but isn't anymore?



Then you see this benchmark below from Techspot and the results are so different from the one your posted from Guru3D and the graph above that I don't know what to believe anymore.



In the benchmark above the 7970 beats the 780 easily so I though something was fishy, somewhere I was missing something creating this inconsistent result where the benchmarks you posted from Guru3D have different results favoring Kepler, so I checked the date Hilbert ran his benchmarks: "by Hilbert Hagedoorn on: 11/17/2015" Then I proceeded to check his benchmark Setup, you can check this by yourself: "AMD Radeon graphics cards we used the latest 15.9.1 Beta driver" Now if you check further you can see that the Beta Drivers 15.9.1 used on Guru3D tests were launched on 28-sep-2015, 2 MONTHS before the launch of Battlefront.

Battlefront PC launched on November 17 2015 and AMD launched its optimized drivers 15.11.1 on November 16, 2015, one day ahead Battlefront's launch, you can check that here:

http://www.techspot.com/news/62803-amd-launches-catalyst-15111-beta-driver-star-wars.html

Why did Guru3D Used the older 15.9.1 drivers that weren't optimized for Battlefront in their tests? I don't know, could be a many number of reasons, but its safe to assume that Guru3D tests are not valid because of this. This is why Techspot have different results when benchmarking the same game with the same cards, the only variable? Drivers, below you can see for yourself what drivers Techspot used in their tests which were conducted on on November 24, 2015. "15.11.1 Beta Drivers"

http://www.techspot.com/review/1096-star-wars-battlefront-benchmarks/

That is why in the benchmark I post above the 7970 does so much better than the one you post from Guru3D. Proving my point on how the 7970 have aged so good that is now beating the best of Kepler thanks to constant driver support and optimizations, as amazing as that sounds literally the 7970 GHz is reaching Next Gen levels of performance, with a single driver update from 15.9.1 Beta to 15.11.1 the HD 7970 GHz not only stopped being 14% slower than the GTX 780 as shown on your Guru3D post, but instead it's 8% FASTER! now thumb.gif
Edited by Dargonplay - 2/26/16 at 5:13pm
post #174 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by serothis View Post

I don't see how being with Nvidia is any different. Nvidia gets performance increases too. AMD just happens to stick with it a little longer. That doesn't mean you have to buy a new GPU every year or even every other year if you're with nvidia. As long as the GPU plays the games you want at the level of detail and fps you want, you should be fine.

I'm still rocking my 580. I really want to upgrade it but it's lived a solid 5 years of service for me.

It's relative gains that makes or breaks the potential of the GPU.

When the 7970 launched, it was around 20% faster than a GTX 580. The 680, which launched a couple of months after, was regarded as a superior card in both noise and power consumption, forcing AMD to release a GHz edition. .

Since the, the 7970 has held its own and as demonstrated in the previous posts, in some games, has even managed to overtake a GTX 780, a card that has a significantly larger die, and achieve near parity with the Titan. By contrast, the 680 has been left in the dust. The 3Gb of VRAM on the 7970 vs the 2 GB on the GTX 680 meant that the 680 would run into VRAM challenges, and performance wise, ... well the 7970 has left the GTX 680 in the dust.

The point is that if you bought a 7970 and kept it or (I would argue) if you bought a 290 and kept it, you got a solid value because the performance improved significantly over time, while the 680 made relative declines. If the Ashes of Singularity benchmarks are anything to go by, then the GCN cards will hold their own in DX12, even if they are overshadowed by Polaris. By contrast the 680 has been eclipsed and didn't age well at all. Compared to the 7970, it was a terrible value if you have kept it all of this time.



If you have the cash to upgrade each generation, this doesn't matter, but for those who don't, performance over time does matter a great deal.




I am wondering about the Fury X. My gut says that it won't age well because like the GTX 680, it has a VRAM challenge - only 4GB.

Although the 980Ti seems like a better DX11 solution, I'm not confident about the aging of it when DX12 games become more popular and there is some evidence that we will see faster DX12 adoption than previous new versions of DX. It seems neither the Fury nor the big Maxwell cards will age well, although for different reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by criminal View Post

Couple of things. 680 is Kepler based as well, which was also launched in 2012. Also, have you seen the stock clocks on 780? And most of them hit 1200-1250 no problem(Mine did 1390 game stable). Overclock the 780 and gain a lot!

I do agree that the 7970 has aged very well though.

Both the 7970 and the GTX 780 were good overclockers IMO. There were quite a few 7970 that hit 1200-1250 MHz as well. One thing to consider is that past a certain point, you don't get linear scaling with Nvidia. Not sure why, but with AMD you do seem to get more linear scaling for higher clocks.

The 290X didn't overclock as well (Probably due to the use of high density libraries, which adds more shaders but reduces clock speed). The Fury X seems to have no headroom for OCing, while the 980Ti can usually do 1450 MHz.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post


Again, what's impressive here is that a card that used to beat the 7970 is now 11% behind it.
I did not say there was a 4% gap between the 770 and 7970.

I said there was an 18% gap between the 770 and 7970. And a 14% gap between the 7970 and 780. The point was you were saying one card is irrelevant because of a 14% difference while praising the other with an 18% difference. So 4% was the difference between getting praise or being called irrelevant.

Some people have the cash flow to buy the very best. I'm not one of them but whether we like it or not, there is a market for that sort of thing in almost every commodity sold.


It's a pretty substantial leap - perhaps not as big as what Dargonplay said (he was focusing on a handful of games), but across the board, AMD does seem to have shown some impressive performance gains over time. Here's to hoping to AMD owners that it will continue.

The Ashes of Singularity benches are for just one game, but if it is representative of DX12, then there is reason for optimism that existing GPU owners will be able to get more life out of their current purchases (or perhaps a better price on the used market).






Quote:
Originally Posted by provost View Post

If AMD doesn’t survive it will be huge a disfavor to the pc gaming industry. The usual cheerleaders of Nvidia can be found in every thread preaching AMD’s doom and gloom. My advice, fight them tooth and nail to defend your rights as a consumer, if you feel passionate about this hobby, or watch it wither way away while these so called “enthusiasts” toast to every quarterly earnings report as if any company’s earnings was a measure of how well any company was serving its customers.

By this token, every financial firm on Wall Street would have been considered a hero for its customers in 2008, until they were exposed to be greedy vampires living off the goodwill of unsuspecting consumers. PC gaming industry is a narrow and niche industry, and Forums are the best and most effective way for the companies participating in this industry to advertise their wares. This is essentially ground zero of Nvidia and AMD’s fortunes are made and lost, as it relates to the discreet graphic card segment of the pc market.

There isn’t anyone more a capitalist than I on this forum, of that I am certain. And, I bring the same zeal to my hobby (for better or worse…lol) as I do to other more productive aspects of my life..lol
What I see here is a company that is only interested in milking its customers to fund other hope-and-a-prayer initiatives that it has promised the investing community. And, the arrogance of this company has led it to believe that its customers are somehow a captive “install base” who can be harvested at will for revenue streams associated with frequent upgrade cycles. Based on this faulty assumption, it has invested hundreds of millions of dollars on a “software suite” to further tie in this “install base” into an “ecosystem” as if its customers were nothing but a horde of mindless zombies slumbering through their gaming hobby, waiting for the next command from their master.

There is no “install base” as Nvidia’s customers are not locked into some kind of multi- year software support annual contract with recurring revenue stream, and there is no “ecosystem”; gameworks is universally despised by 2/3 of the company’s customers who are not on the Maxwell platform. Yes, Nvidia tried to force them to upgrade through its “proprietary suite” (what a joke), but majority resisted for one reason or another. Gysnc is dead in the water with the wider adoption of Async. So, what else, oh yeah, some game recording tech that I can’t even remember the name of at the moment.
Now let’s look at what has failed for this so called “install base” and “ecoysytem”; anemic driver optimization for anyone other than those on Maxwell (another attempt by Nvidia to force its customers to upgrade), horrible software support for multi gpus, and glitchy Nvidia sponsored games.

So, forgive me if I believe that Nvidia is only interested in milking its customers rather than serving them; hey why put money into a declining segment, let’s rip it off as fast you can while you can to fund other hair brain schemes…..


I agree. Monopolies are terrible for end consumers, even those that don't seem to like one company or another. It leads to the monopolist extracting economic rent.

It's in our best interests to have at least 2 vendors with a high degree of competition. It forces innovation, price competition, and active courting of a user base. A situation like what Intel currently has leads to a milking. Same with Microsoft - I think they'd treat their end users a lot better if Linux were to gain a more serious market share.

I'm not a big believer of market efficiency or any of that. This isn't a politics thread, but I personally prefer a mixed economy and I believe that anti-trust laws should be enforced where companies become too dominant. To me, the living standards of the Social Democracies over a more "pure capitalistic" society are self evident. We also seem to need stronger consumer protection laws these days.


Going back on topic, I think that those wishing for a monopoly will learn the hard way. We'll end up with a situation where there are high prices, low innovation, and a lot of milking. Maybe good for a few shareholders, but terrible for the end customer. I just hope that AMD's Polaris lives up to expectations, as does Zen.
Edited by CrazyElf - 2/26/16 at 4:56pm
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post #175 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

The reason I think the 680 is irrelevant is because it was competing against the HD 7970 and now it lost the battle, so its now irrelevant, the GTX 780 on the other hand is from a newer generation of cards and it is expected for them to beat the HD 7970, this is why the 14% gap between the 7970 and the 780 wont render the 7970 irrelevant, because they're simple not sharing the same generation and the 780 is expected to beat Tahiti, while the 680 is in fact from the same generation as the 7970 and should be the fair comparison.
Now that is strange, because regarding this graph the GTX 780Ti is in fact 22% faster than the GTX 780, maybe at launch the difference was 16% but isn't anymore?

680 is irrelevant because it has 2gb of ram. Let's leave it at that. biggrin.gif

When you are doing your numbers, divide the larger number by the smaller number to get how much faster the higher card is.

Example - 132 780 Ti / 110 780 = 1.2 or 20%.

The 16% figure was taken from TPU's 780 Ti debut review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

In the benchmark above the 7970 beats the 780 easily so I though something was fishy, somewhere I was missing something creating this inconsistent result where the benchmarks you posted from Guru3D have different results favoring Kepler, so I checked the date Hilbert ran his benchmarks: "by Hilbert Hagedoorn on: 11/17/2015" Then I proceeded to check his benchmark Setup, you can check this by yourself: "AMD Radeon graphics cards we used the latest 15.9.1 Beta driver" Now if you check further you can see that the Beta Drivers 15.9.1 used on Guru3D tests were launched on 28-sep-2015, 2 MONTHS before the launch of Battlefront.

Battlefront PC launched on November 17 2015 and AMD launched its optimized drivers 15.11.1 on November 16, 2015, one day ahead Battlefront's launch, you can check that here:

Why did Guru3D Used the older 15.9.1 drivers that weren't optimized for Battlefront in their tests? I don't know, could be a many number of reasons, but its safe to assume that Guru3D tests are not valid because of this. This is why Techspot have different results when benchmarking the same game with the same cards, the only variable? Drivers, below you can see for yourself what drivers Techspot used in their tests which were conducted on on November 24, 2015. "15.11.1 Beta Drivers"

That is why in the benchmark I post above the 7970 does so much better than the one you post from Guru3D. Proving my point on how the 7970 have aged so good that is now beating the best of Kepler thanks to constant driver support and optimizations, as amazing as that sounds literally the 7970 GHz is reaching Next Gen levels of performance, with a single driver update from 15.9.1 Beta to 15.11.1 the HD 7970 GHz not only stopped being 14% slower than the GTX 780 as shown on your Guru3D post, but instead it's 8% FASTER! now thumb.gif

Good catch on the drivers. So here's one using 15.11.1 with the 780 faster. The only difference is these ones use the official geforce driver for Star Wars.

http://pclab.pl/art66993-2.html



And with that, I'm out. Just like any other single test, different sites get slightly different numbers. In time, with dx12, it's more probable than not that the 280x/7970 will end up catching the 780.
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post #176 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Imagery View Post

Amd should make products that make people want to upgrade every year and drivers that let them use it.

I don't think I'd personally ever buy another amd GPU unless I had a very specific use for it.

So, i ask you again . . .

Why would i subject myself to random crashes?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1589945/geforce-hot-fix-driver-361-82
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post #177 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdr09 View Post

So, i ask you again . . .

Why would i subject myself to random crashes?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1589945/geforce-hot-fix-driver-361-82

I like how you just take the OP's words and use it for propaganda purposes. I'm sure someone like yourself finds "Eject Graphics Device" to be such a huge issue.

To make it easier on yourself I'm going to do the same as you in hopes you realize how silly you appear.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1589823/amd-crimson-16-1-1-hotfix

"Underclocking issue is still present in a lot of Hawaii/Fiji cards..... Still not fixed."

Stick to GSync and 970 threads please.
post #178 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogon View Post

I like how you just take the OP's words and use it for propaganda purposes. I'm sure someone like yourself finds "Eject Graphics Device" to be such a huge issue.

To make it easier on yourself I'm going to do the same as you in hopes you realize how silly you appear.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1589823/amd-crimson-16-1-1-hotfix

"Underclocking issue is still present in a lot of Hawaii/Fiji cards..... Still not fixed."

Stick to GSync and 970 threads please.

Glad you like it.
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post #179 of 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdr09 View Post

So, i ask you again . . .

Why would i subject myself to random crashes?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1589945/geforce-hot-fix-driver-361-82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogon View Post

I like how you just take the OP's words and use it for propaganda purposes. I'm sure someone like yourself finds "Eject Graphics Device" to be such a huge issue.

To make it easier on yourself I'm going to do the same as you in hopes you realize how silly you appear.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1589823/amd-crimson-16-1-1-hotfix

"Underclocking issue is still present in a lot of Hawaii/Fiji cards..... Still not fixed."

Stick to GSync and 970 threads please.

Both card companies are genuinely good, but they play on their strengths. It's apparent AMD has it's flaws but so doesn't NVidia. Some of us can live with certain flaws AMD has, but not with those from NVida. Vice-versa. Back in the day when Battlefield 1942 was released I got super motion sickness from NVidia's graphics cards of the time, personally I've never touch an NVidia since for myself. ATi had the most non-sickening experience.
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post #180 of 185
I really want to try a full AMD system if the new generations prove worthy.
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